Christian/Messianic

[Guest yod]

acts 21:20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them

In Acts 21 the high council at Jerusalem asked Paul to show that there was no truth to the rumor that he was teaching that jews should depart from the Torah...then they restated the few rules that gentiles were given...but note what is NOT in the text.

Nowhere does it say "even though gentiles are forbidden from joining us"

I think you are implying something that isn't there, bro. These things are not required but they are also not forbidden. It's a matter of personal conscience (again)

[nebula]

:x: Oops! Looks like Dad Ernie got caught taking a verse out of context from the rest of the passage!

Dear me, you know better than that!

What happened?

Edited December 23, 2003 by nebula

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE 

I am currently doing a study of the usage of terms (Israel, Israelites, Jew, Jews, Jewish, Jacob, Israel) in the NT. There are around 300 of them and it may take a little time to complete my study. But consistently what I find are comments about various traditions that BELONG TO THE JEWS. Never, never, never are these TRADITIONS passed on to the gentiles. Why is that?

First of all, it is important to distinguish between the Festivals of the Lord, and Jewish traditions. The Sabbath, and the Festivals including Rosh Chodesh (new moon), are all biblical commandments are things that God gave to the Jewish people.

A tradition, on the other hand, speaks of the ways those commandments are observed. For example, we kindle the Shabbos lights at sundown on Friday night, and perform the Kiddush, a blessing for the sancitification of Shabbat. These are not commandments, but they are traditions employed in the observance of the commandment to keep and observe His Shabbat. I could give many other such examples.

I say all of that to say this: God called Israel to be a light to world. The Torah given at Sinai was to be taken to the world. It is a misconception to assume that it was to remain the sole possession of the Jewish people. There are specific "signs" in the Torah that God intended to set them apart from the rest of the world. Circumcision is one such sign. The Sabbath according to Exodus 31 is another such sign. These are not traditions.

Actually the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers all kept Sabbath and Pesach (Passover) until the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. It was there that Constantine and the rest of the council declared their intentions to replace the observance of God's holydays with "Christianized" holydays of the pagan Roman culture.

[Guest shiloh357]

Regarding Acts 15, and the Jerusalem council:

It is interesting that the real issue at the council was not whether Gentiles needed to observe the Law of Moses to be saved, but rather the issue was how could uncircumcized Gentiles be saved? Today the issue is the exact opposite in many sectors of Christendom. Today, the issue is: How can a Jew be saved and still observe the Law of Moses?

The four things that were required of the Gentiles were as follows:

Acts 15:19-20

"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, [20] but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

These were the "starter pack" for those Gentiles that had just come into faith. These things were the bare minimum required for table fellowship between Jewish and non-Jewish bretheren. This shows that the Jewish believers were still quite Torah observant.

Notice if you will, that they were told to abstain from meat that was strangled. This speaks to the way that an animal was killed. Killing an animal improperly would render it "traif" or unclean even if it was on the list of kosher animals. Even today, animals are killed a certain way when being prepared for Jewish consumption. This means that if you were a nonJewish believer in the 1st century, and you took the council's decisions seriously, what would you do? You would seek to buy meat from a butcher who could guarantee that meat was killed properly. Thus, by necessity, you would have to buy it from a Jewish/kosher butcher. This would also apply to the issue about not consuming blood.

So, to say that nothing was being passed on to the Gentiles, would not be correct.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

Colossians 2:14-23 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

With what has already been revealed in Acts 21. Can someone please exegete these for me. I copied MANY verses so as NOT to take them out of context, which reminds me in what way did I take a verse out of context, if all I asked is to exegete it?

ALSO:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

What "traditions" are spoken of here?

I have never said that believing Jews need cease from their "customs", although it would appears Acts 21 would imply such.

BTW, since when is "Passover" or "Sabbath" NOT a Jewish custom/tradition? Is it not also commanded of the Jewish priests to NOT shave or cut their hair? Is this or is this not a Jewish custom?

Oh I forgot, we are a peculiar nation, a holy nation and we are made priests in Him who is after the ORDER of Melchizedek, a gentile. So Jewish laws do not apply.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shiloh357]

I have never said that believing Jews need cease from their "customs", although it would appears Acts 21 would imply such.

the issue in Acts 21 dealt with Paul needing to demonstrate that he was still Torah observant. Paul was asked by James to show that he was not teaching Jews should forsake the Torah contrary to what was being purported about him. So, Acts 21 was actually saying the opposite of how you are taking the passage.

Oh I forgot, we are a peculiar nation, a holy nation and we are made priests in Him who is after the ORDER of Melchizedek, a gentile. So Jewish laws do not apply

.

Melchiezedek was not a Gentile. Many commentators both Jewish and Gentile believe agree that He is in fact Yeshua the Messiah.

BTW, since when is "Passover" or "Sabbath" NOT a Jewish custom/tradition? Is it not also commanded of the Jewish priests to NOT shave or cut their hair? Is this or is this not a Jewish custom?

A Jewish custom/tradition is extra-biblical. It is something done that is not actually commanded in Scripture, but is employed in the observance of the commandments. Passover and Sabbath are not "Jewish" because they find their origins as commandments of God. Passover and Sabbath and the other festivals are God's appointed times. The Jews did not invent the Sabbath or Passover, Sukkot, etc. Who commanded the priests not to shave or cut their hair? Did Jews make that commandment? Or did God make that commandment? If God made the commmandment, then it is not a "custom."

[Guest yod]

A Jewish custom/tradition is extra-biblical. It is something done that is not actually commanded in Scripture, but is employed in the observance of the commandments.

Shilo has answered your question twice, Ernie, but I'm not sure it is getting through.

Here's another example.

a Kipa (yarmulke) is a custom or tradition. Though jews can point to a scripture of why they do it, there is no hard commandment that it be done.

Same with the Passover. There is no commandment of exactly how the ceremony is to be done...only that it is to be observed and why. The matza-tosh (3 compartment breadbag) is not mentioned in scripture which makes it a tradition or custom.

But Passover is not a tradition. It is a commandment. It is also called (by God) an everlasting memorial for the alien and stranger who is among the children of Israel so I can't see why you would be against that.

but the most evidence for disproving your assertion is the non-mention of it in the NT. If Gentiles being joined to messianic congregations made them the "synagogue of satan" (a very serious accusation, btw) then I'm sure it would have been addressed in much more detail than the vague reference you have used to imply this.

And the verse in Acts 21 is merely saying that "this" is what the rumors are...and that the High Council of Jerusalem wants Paul to show everyone that it's not true....which Paul does. It has nothing to do with Gentiles keeping customs. If anything, it's proof that Paul did not speak against the jewish believers in Yeshua keeping these customs. It also does not take any opportunity to say that Gentiles should NOT do this, either.

You are making a mountain out of a hill of beans.

[nebula]

But Passover is not a tradition. It is a commandment. It is also called (by God) an everlasting memorial for the alien and stranger who is among the children of Israel so I can't see why you would be against that.

Yes, this is my understanding, too, and why I am puzzled by the response against it.

:c:

[Guest shiloh357]

Colossians 2:14-23 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

This is an awful lot to exegete. I, like others, have to go to work, so I will give some background info first, and then I will discuss the rest in bits and piecies.

First of all the Colossians were dealing with gnostic heretics in their midst. That is what this letter was written to combat. the gnostics believed that the physical world in sinful because it is physical. Therefore, they did not believe that Jesus actually came in the flesh, but rather as a spirit being. In Colossians, Paul keeps talking about the "body." He is uses a lot physical imagery to combat the heresy that something is bad because it is sinful in nature.

The gnostics were heavy into selfabasement and selfabuse. Anything that could be done to "punish" the flesh, was considered in their view meritorious.

That is why they hated the festivals and appointed times of the Lord. Since festivals sancitify time, matter, and space, they would be sinful according to Gnostic reckonings.

The "rudiments of the world" referred to in that passage, is not the commandments of the Torah, but rather the man-made ideas and philosophies of the gnostics, and those of similar ilk. Verses 20-23 deal specifically with the Gnostic teachings that Paul was combatting.

Verses 16 and 17 are admonishments by Paul not to allow the heretics to judge them because they keep the Sabbath and the festivals. He is actually telling them to hold on to these observances because their significance as shadows of what is to come. They are important because they find their substance and reality in the Messiah. The festivals are living pictures of Jesus. What is so tragic, is that these two verse are usually interpreted to mean that they should not allow the Jews to judge them for not keeping the festivals and Sabbath, etc. Such is an incorrect interpretation, because the Jews would not have cared if Gentiles observed such things, or not. Secondly, we know from history that Gentile believers observed at least Passover and Sabbath until 325 A.D. So, it should be no surprise to anyone that the first Church had a much more Jewish flavor than most scholars let on.

Again, I did not address everything; this was just a brief overview. I can get into specific verse in more detail later.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

I think I am fighting a lost cause on you fellas. My point was and is that all those things done - festivals, new moons, sacrifices, feasts, etc, ad infinitum, were ONLY a shadow of which was to come. They were "fulfilled" in Christ, their practice is only an outward show and Christ in us, the hope of glory, is the inward workings of God in our lives. THIS IS WHAT IS DEEMED IMPORTANT - NOT all the outward show. That is why I can agree with Nebula's original statement, but not with the idea that all these rituals are any more than superficiality, particularly for the gentile. They are a means by which we can learn to love our Jewish brethren, and most of all God. For a gentile to make a "practice" of following them and encourage others to do so as well - well in my opinion, and it seems also the Bible's, that they are of the people who claim to be Jews BUT ARE NOT.

I leave it there.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie