Christian/Messianic

[Guest shiloh357]

I think I am fighting a lost cause on you fellas.

Why? Because we can actually articulate a decent, and intellegent repsonse? Because it looks like we may have thought this out more than you wanted to believe we have? Because maybe it is not going to as easy to brush aside our comments as you anticipated?

My point was and is that all those things done - festivals, new moons, sacrifices, feasts, etc, ad infinitum, were ONLY a shadow of which was to come.

Paul said in Col. 2:17 that we are shadows of things to come. Read it. Paul is speaking after the fact of the ressurection of Messiah, and yet he sees the festivals shadows of things yet to come. Paul was far from believing that the festivals and observances should be relegated to history. They are yet to be fulfilled in the ultimate sense. That will not happen until the new heavens and new earth.

They were "fulfilled" in Christ, their practice is only an outward show

Not really. The festivals are living pictures of the Messiah and they teach us spiritual truths about redemption, salvation, holiness, and they reveal God's plan for the ages. The festivals are a prophetic time table of events. That is why they are rehearsal of the future. When we observe God's appointed times, we are living out his plan for the world, and demonstrate the Messiah to others as well.

and Christ in us, the hope of glory, is the inward workings of God in our lives. THIS IS WHAT IS DEEMED IMPORTANT - NOT all the outward show.

You are assigning your own values to these things. You are the one who tries to say that they are nothing but outward show. This shows quite frankly that you are not as studied on the issue as you have convinced yourself that you are. I am not trying to be rude, but I speak plainly. You have a lot to learn in this area.

That is why I can agree with Nebula's original statement, but not with the idea that all these rituals are any more than superficiality,

That is what you want to believe. You refuse to see them as anything more than superficial simply because it might damage the present state of your theology.

For a gentile to make a "practice" of following them and encourage others to do so as well - well in my opinion, and it seems also the Bible's, that they are of the people who claim to be Jews BUT ARE NOT.

To say that a Gentile, like brother Yod for example is claiming to be a Jew just because he participates in Sabbath or Passover, etc. is unfair. You are assigning your belief system to him and other Gentiles who do the same. Furthermore, for you to equate these believers as being a part of the Synagogue of Satan mentioned in Revleation is downright slanderous. It is tragic and very grevious misuse of the Word of God.

I leave it there.

Oh that's great. You want to us to exegete passages for you, and once we get started, you want to drop the issue. Cause your "fighting a lost cause." I thought we were having a discussion, not a battle. I did not realize that you had a more adversarial reason for your posts. I thought you actually wanted to know what we thought. Instead you were just looking to try and prove that Yod, and I guess, George, and other Gentiles on this board, who participate in such things are really the "Synagogue of Satan." I am sure they will all really appreciate that.

[nebula]

That is why I can agree with Nebula's original statement, but not with the idea that all these rituals are any more than superficiality, particularly for the gentile. They are a means by which we can learn to love our Jewish brethren, and most of all God. For a gentile to make a "practice" of following them and encourage others to do so as well - well in my opinion, and it seems also the Bible's, that they are of the people who claim to be Jews BUT ARE NOT.

I really am puzzled by this.

Don't you recall that our celebration of Communion is a simplified version of the Passover celebration. I mean, that is what "The Last Supper" was: Passover. Does this make Communion "superficial?"

If a Gentile choses to regularly celebrate the Biblical Feasts as a rememberance and celebration, how does this make them of the Synogogue of Satan (those who claim they are Jews but are not)? I always thought of those who claimed they are Jews but are not meant those who had the outward show but not the inner heart of Judaism, or even those Jews who failed to follow the fulfillment of the Jewish Law (which is Yeshua).

Yes, the Council spoke against the requirement of circumcision and forbade the eating of strangled meat or meat sacrificed to idols, but they mentioned nothing else.

And I personally would not make celebrating the feasts a requirement. I do not believe Yod and Shiloh are advocating that eaiter. But if I make a choice to, and am blessed by it, why should it be considered wrong?

[Guest yod]

festivals, new moons, sacrifices, feasts, etc, ad infinitum, were ONLY a shadow of which was to come. They were "fulfilled" in Christ,

I'm not as upset as Shilo seems to be on this.

You can say we're of the synagogue of Satan all you want.....seems like a brutal judgement but I know it isn't true so it bounces off.

However, that one statement that you quoted is not entirely accurate. If you had an understanding of the Feasts you would know that only the first 4 have been fulfilled. The remaining 3 "High Holy Days" are after the harvest and yet remain to be fulfilled. Most of the things you mentioned point to the end of days more than the past, in fact.

Thus, another reason why it is good to actually observe these days to get the full understanding.

FYI, I can't think of any jewish "traditions" or "customs" that I keep with the possible exception of a few hanukkah things....but I can't find my Hanukkiah (a special 9 candle menorah) this year so a few hanukkah parties will have to do until I get another one. Do you know that Yeshua celebrated this day? It is mentioned in Luke 10:22.

I think you miss the point of why these are observed though. They are all given as an object lesson for teaching the next generation about God. There is no way to commercialize these things so my kids learn more about Yeshua from this stuff than any of the pagan feasts that have been christianized.

Being the scholarly type, it seems like you would really enjoy this for the things you would learn....and the way it comes around seasonally perpetuates knowledge.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings you all,

I want you guys to know that I truly honestly do love you. No reservations. I see by your diligent study that you are TRUE seekers of the truth and love our Lord, so I consider you my brothers. If you think that by adopting Jewish traditions and festivals and practices and customs are something that the Bible teaches, then please show me WHERE!

For the most part, the New Covenant was written TO the Gentiles, BY Jewish disciples of our Lord. Those gentiles didn't know squat about Jewish religion. Paul makes it pretty clear that to a Jew, he acts as a Jew and to a Roman (or whatever - a gentile), then he acts like a Roman. Never vearing from his task of administering the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Where is it that he or ANY of the disciples, or writers of the NC put forth the Jewish religious "rites", or EVEN suggest that they be adhered to or practiced? YOU WON'T FIND IT. The Lord's supper IS NOT the PASSOVER, as someone has said. It was to do with fellowship with the Lord and with one another. You may want to read Corinthians for a better understanding of that custom which was given to CHRISTIANS.

Baptism is another of the "customs" given to Christians. It is not an act of "spiritual cleansing" as in the OC, but it was to show our DEATH and our raising up as a NEW CREATURE in Christ.

Now, please let us not argue from personal motivation any further, but let me see the scriptures you seem to think exist in the NC.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

Dad,

have I ever had to tell you how to use a fork?

[Dad Ernie]

Dad,

have I ever had to tell you how to use a fork?

Greetings Yod,

Boy that is really scriptural!

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

Let me put it this way since common sense doesn't work....

Since I don't think you would argue that Paul and the jewish apostles/disciples did not continue being jewish, where do they tell the gentiles to dissassociate themselves from the jews when they observed these days? That is the point about the wall of enmity being broken down. It wasn't because jews stopped these observances but that now gentiles were allowed to be part of it without circumcision

I'm not going to get into it with you line for line because it's just so obvious to me that I don't care whether you can see it or not.

1 Corinthians 5

6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

I'm not going to get into it with you line for line because it's just so obvious to me that I don't care whether you can see it or not.

The reason you are not going to argue "line for line" is because it is just not there.

Have a blessed day.

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

what? how to use a fork?

I just posted one off the top of my head where Paul says to the Corinthians "let us keep the feast" speaking of Passover. Surely he wouldn't be encouraging gentiles to join the "synagogue of satan" would he?

You havent' shown a single place where the jewish brothers forbade gentiles from celebrating with them, lest they become the "synagogue of Satan". Scripture does however speak of the dividing wall being torn down...and the jews remaining jews. Did they separate from the gentiles on Feast Days?

You have invented this "problem". Why would there be any scripture to support something that wasnt' there???

It's just a ridiculous assertion. Not worthy of an arguement

[Guest shiloh357]

The Lord's supper IS NOT the PASSOVER, as someone has said. It was to do with fellowship with the Lord and with one another.

Actually the Lord's supper does come from Passover In the seder, it is the third cup that is drank from and the "hidden" matzah cracker called the "afikomen." It is at that point towards the end of the seder, that we remember what Messiah said when he said "this do in remebrance of me."

The Lord's supper is not the entire Passover, just one small portion of it.