Christian/Messianic

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul makes it pretty clear that to a Jew, he acts as a Jew and to a Roman (or whatever - a gentile),then he acts like a Roman.

Actually Paul is talking about empthasing. Paul is not saying that he stays kosher with the Jews and eats pork with the Romans. In fact, Paul says this about himself at his trial in Rome:

Acts 24:14-16

    "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law, and that is written in the Prophets; [15] having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. [16] "In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.

Acts 25:8

    while Paul said in his own defense, "I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

Paul remained Torah observant his entire life. Had he been acting one way around Jews and another way around Gentiles, he could have not made the above statements.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

Getting back on track, I would like to know what the early Gentiles knew about the Hebrew/Jewish God and the Messiah. It would appear from the scriptures - not much. We see Philip being sent to a eunuch and explaining how the Isaiah scroll he was reading pertained to the recent events of Christ. Undoubtedly this eunuch had been sent to gain further understanding of these events:

Acts 8:30-31 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Considering that the disciples did not have one or more Bibles laying loose around the house, and that what they learned was primarily word of mouth while sitting in the Temple or under someone's tutelage. I rather doubt that of the 11 + Paul, only Paul had probably ever held a scroll from the Tenakh. Now please imagine these scrolls. How many of them do you think there were that covered the entire Old Covenant? 50? 100? I tried doing a search to find out, but couldn't find anything. Each one was considered "sacred" and cared for with much zeal by the priests in the temples. When a parchment became worn or torn, it was honorably disposed of. It was not passed along to anyone. Each of these scrolls probably were of pretty good size, both in dimension and weight. It often took many years for the scribes to copy the scrolls to a new parchment. The Gutenberg Press did not come along for many centuries to come. So the number of scrolls were rather limited in number. It was not very likely that each of the disciples had their own set.

So WHAT was it that the Apostles went about teaching? I believe the clue lies in this verse:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Isn't this what Paul emphasized throughout his ministry? I believe that THIS is what all believers should be concerned with. Everything else that is not of the Gospel, is relegated to tertiary information according to Paul:

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So now please tell me, to be scripturally correct in our worship, what are gentiles commended to do throughout the New Covenant?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

If you think that by adopting Jewish traditions and festivals and practices and customs are something that the Bible teaches, then please show me WHERE!

Hey!

Unfortunately, I do not have the time right now to search out every verse and what-not. So, please forgive the"blanket statements."

For the most part, the New Covenant was written TO the Gentiles, BY Jewish disciples of our Lord. Those gentiles didn't know squat about Jewish religion.

I remember reading inActs that at least the initial Gentile believers were those who were "God-fearing" and met in the Synogogues. Didn't Paul preach to Jews and Gentiles together in the Synogogues? I can look up Scriptures later if you need to see what I am talking about. But in this case, these Gentiles would know things of the Jewish religion.

Where is it that he or ANY of the disciples, or writers of the NC put forth the Jewish religious "rites", or EVEN suggest that they be adhered to or practiced? YOU WON'T FIND IT.

No, they did not require them. But are there any passages to indicate they be forbidden from being practiced? I am not referring to the obligatory practicing of any of them, but what of one's chosing to? But since we are talking about the Feasts in particular and not all the rigorous "rites," are the Gentiles forbidden from celebrating the Feasts with their Jewish bretheren who believe in Yeshua ha Maschiach?

The Lord's supper IS NOT the PASSOVER, as someone has said. It was to do with fellowship with the Lord and with one another. You may want to read Corinthians for a better understanding of that custom which was given to CHRISTIANS.

I did not mean to say it was the Passover. However, it did come out of the Passover. "On the night He was betrayed, He took the bread . . . He took the cup . . . ." This occured during the time Jesus and His disciples were celebrating the Passover feast. Also note it says the bread and the cup, not a bread and a cup. This would indicate significance in the bread and cup He picked up, would it not?

And I thought Communion was about remembering the Lord, or at least isn't that what Jesus said, "Do this in rememberance of Me"? Doesn't it aldo say that "in so doing you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes"? Where is it stated in Scripture that Communion was about fellowship?

As has been pointed out, neither Paul nor the other Apostles stopped being Jews. Indeed, although Paul spoke against the requirement of circumcision, he still had Timothy circumcised before Timothy travelled with them. Yes, there was a reason, but he still did it. Likewise, as had been pointed out, the Acts 21 passage was about accusations against Paul that he was telling Jews to stop practicing Jewish customs, which were false. He was then encouraged to participate in the purification rites with some others to show he still lived in obedience to the Law, and he followed this advice. Which would indicate he still did live out Jewish customs and such.

[Guest yod]

Good post, Nebbie gurl!

yeah...let's change the subject, Ernie

Most synagogues would have had a Torah. There were plenty of scribes even back then.

While you are absolutely correct in your deduction of what Paul emphasized throughout his ministry. After all, this is what he was born to teach. But do you really think he did that apart from the foundation of what was already written? Did he start a new religion completely on his own? Do you really think he forbade gentiles from celebrating the Feast Days while strictly adhering to them himself with other jewish believers? Can't you see how senseless this idea is yet?

I think you are referring to me when you said

The Lord's supper IS NOT the PASSOVER, as someone has said. It was to do with fellowship with the Lord and with one another.

I have said before that this was a new "sacrament" in the NT so His death and resurrection could be proclaimed more than once a year. It is a "tradition" outside of the Bible....yet based on the Bible....like many of the things you seem to be speaking against in the jewish culture. It's entirely likely that jews first started doing this....should we avoid it because it might make us of the synagogue of satan?

But the original context of the Lord's Supper was that ALL believers WOULD keep the Passover and remember Him every time this portion of the seder occured. I find no mention that gentiles should be excluded here either.

Say "uncle", dad. You've been whupped.

I'm gonna call Shadow2B over here in dang minute if you don't...

[nebula]

I felt like addressing some points that started this whole debate.

Those gentiles that I have become acquainted with that call themselves Messianic, look to adopt Jewish traditions and Jewish laws in the hope that it makes them more "spiritual". I believe these two verses pertain to them:

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

This is what puzzles me the most. How does a Gentile who comes to faith in Jesus (that is, becomes a born-again Christian) who "adopts Jewish traditons and Jewish laws" make him a blasphemer, lier, and of the synogogue of Satan? Were such people the ones who were persecuting the Church of Smyrna (Rev. 2:9)? Were such the people troubling the Church of Philadelphia (Rev. 3:9)? Why do you believe this is so? Where does this belief come from?

If a Jew wants to maintain a link to HIS HERITAGE, then by all means, I and Paul do not have anything against that - even circumcision or Sabbath observation. But these things are NOTHING towards ones salvation.

However, OTOH, gentiles have a heritage of rebellion, without God and without the Fathers and the Prophets. We take part in what they have passed down to us thanks to the partition that was torn in two with the incident of the cross.

I agree, these things have nothing towards one's salvation. There is, however, more to being a Christian than just getting inside Heaven's gates (salvation). I appeal to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats if you need a Scriptural backing for this claim.

Yes, Gentiles have a heritage of rebellion - but so do the Jews! (Just ask Moses! )

But we, being gentiles, do not have the right to partake of their customs and observances.

Why not? How is this taking away the division between Jew and Gentile if we cannot partake of their culture?

I know this is a silly example, but if a Japanese student comes to the US, what kind of fellowship can we have if I forbid him from sharing pizza with me because he is not American? Or he forbids me from partaking of things of his culture because I am not Japanese? Now, if I share my pizza with him and he shares some elements of his culture with me and we participate in them together, then we are fellowshiping and understanding one another. Divisions are torn down.

Why would this not be the same between Jew and Gentile?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings all,

Here is a quote from me from my first post on this thread:

No such designation as "Messianic" is found in the Bible. I am not positive of the etymology of this term, but it generally applies to those who maintain some connection to Jewish roots. True Messianics, I believe are Jewish of Israel, if you will. They recognize that Christ IS the awaited Messiah which their ancestors had looked for. Gentiles on the other hand, have NO such history. Those gentiles that I have become acquainted with that call themselves Messianic, look to adopt Jewish traditions and Jewish laws in the hope that it makes them more "spiritual". I believe these two verses pertain to them:

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Don't you understand what I am saying? There ARE groups of Messianic Gentiles who pretend to the heritage of the Jews, and they are not just a few. It is these that I have primarily addressed, but after all the accusations thrown at me, I've had to dig further into the scriptures and search my heart to gain further clarification.

How could I call you, Yod, Neb & Shiloh, brothers in Christ, if I did not believe that you were trusting and following in the path of our Lord? Scripture either stands or falls on its own merit. Scripture is interpreted by scripture. The "spiritual" with the "spiritual". I see plainly how those gentiles who claim to be Jews are in actuality the "synagogue of Christ". They wish to go back under the law and to pull others with them. This is what I criticize.

Please no more argument.

Have a great Christmas for we KNOW the reason for the season.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

Please no more argument.

I take that as "uncle" :::sticks out tongue:::

but I still think it is a stretch to make the synagogue of satan ANY messianic congregations just because there are gentiles in them with an identity crisis.

I believe that is speaking of something much worse but there aren't many clues.

It's probably refers to these verses in Romans 2

23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

but I think you are trying to make the case that what we call "Ephramite" congregations are the synagogue of Satan? They can be weird but I don't think I would go quite that far....

[nebula]

How could I call you, Yod, Neb & Shiloh, brothers in Christ, . . .

Please, don't call me a "brother"! If you've seen the Worthy Christmas card you should realize that I am quite a sister!!

There ARE groups of Messianic Gentiles who pretend to the heritage of the Jews

OK, in all fairness, I have no idea what you are talking about here. I guess I have just not come across these people you are talking about. Although I do know some Gentiles by birth who have chosen to join a Messianic congregation because they feel closer to the faith that way, or something like that. But the focus isn't about being bound to the Law so much as it is partakin gof the heritage of Christ, or something like that.

Just as I know Christians who make a spiritual superiority out of Bible degrees and higher knowledge of such while others think of such only as drawing closer to knowing the Lord and His ways better.

To each his own, I guess.

Merry Christmas to you too!

[Guest yod]

I am quite a sister!!

yes you are!

And a quite nice one at that!

Merry Christmas to you and Happy hanukkah to Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Neb,

I thought I caught a while back that you were a lady. But you "fight" like a man. So I wasn't exactly sure how to address my last post. Forgive me, I have had my come-uppance.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie