Lent

[EricH]

The church has always been there to help guide its paritioners. The Bible tells us to pray. I have personally heard people ask, "but how do I pray" The Church give us guidlines to help us. The Bible gives us an example of Jesus fasting and praying for 40 days. People will ask, "how do I do this" Is it not the role of the Church to guide its people and give them guidlines on how they can lead a Jesus filled life?

God Bless,

K.D.

And the Bible itself gives us guidlines:

He was praying in a certain place, and when He finished, one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples." He said to them, "Whenever you pray, say: Father, Your name be honored as holy. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone in debt to us. And do not bring us into temptation."

Luke 11:1-4 HCSB

Other than leading a person to this text, and helping them study it, what could the church add to this?

[CaritateDei]

A few issues here...

I'm sure that many of us are criticizing the Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox practices of lent.

These churches are all very community based. It is not just about "I" and "Me" acheiving salvation...it is about "us" and "we."

Friday is the day that the group collectively decided (and bound, according to the Gospel of John) that they would abstain from meat and fast. The point is...IN THOSE CHURCHES, it is morally wrong to willfully go against what the entire rest of the community is doing or practicing.

Therein, as the Bard tells us so eloquently, lies the rub.

If your church doesn't buy into it, don't practice it. If your church and your entire community church does practice it, and you refuse to, find a new church.

I realize that Catholicism is an ever changing theology and what is posted below is subject to change on a whim from the so-called

[EricH]

A few issues here...

I'm sure that many of us are criticizing the Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox practices of lent.

These churches are all very community based. It is not just about "I" and "Me" acheiving salvation...it is about "us" and "we."

Friday is the day that the group collectively decided (and bound, according to the Gospel of John) that they would abstain from meat and fast. The point is...IN THOSE CHURCHES, it is morally wrong to willfully go against what the entire rest of the community is doing or practicing.

Therein, as the Bard tells us so eloquently, lies the rub.

If your church doesn't buy into it, don't practice it. If your church and your entire community church does practice it, and you refuse to, find a new church.

I realize that Catholicism is an ever changing theology and what is posted below is subject to change on a whim from the so-called

[Kansasdad]

The church has always been there to help guide its paritioners. The Bible tells us to pray. I have personally heard people ask, "but how do I pray" The Church give us guidlines to help us. The Bible gives us an example of Jesus fasting and praying for 40 days. People will ask, "how do I do this" Is it not the role of the Church to guide its people and give them guidlines on how they can lead a Jesus filled life?

God Bless,

K.D.

And the Bible itself gives us guidlines:

He was praying in a certain place, and when He finished, one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples." He said to them, "Whenever you pray, say: Father, Your name be honored as holy. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone in debt to us. And do not bring us into temptation."

Luke 11:1-4 HCSB

Other than leading a person to this text, and helping them study it, what could the church add to this?

So you are saying the only thing the Church can guide us to concerning prayer is this prayer and nothing else?

[Kansasdad]

I don't care what you do. I am just asking, are you going to follow the example that Jesus gave us. I would also ask you this. If you don't follow the example of Jesus Christ, have you committed a sin?

So your logic here seems to be that everything Jesus did, we should do. Is that correct?

No, I am not arguing that we must follow his exact actions. I don't live near a desert. It must be measured in the spirit of the message not the letter of the action. But also keep in mind that Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and nights and after this time he was tempted. This is how he prepared for what was to come. Can you not see an example of how we can prepare ourselves to face temptations. This is the example Jesus gives us. Not the step by step instructions but the message. Prayer and Fasting will help you deal with temptations. So given this example, people will ask, OK how do we go about doing this. The Church in turn give guidelines for how a person can go about doing this very thing.

So maybe I should re-phrase my question to be more specific. If we don't follow Jesus example by praying and fasting are we more likely to fall into temptation and sin.

[Kansasdad]

but no man has the authority from the Eternal to bind such activities on man and then turn around with accusations that those who fail to participate are committing a

[EricH]

So maybe I should re-phrase my question to be more specific. If we don't follow Jesus example by praying and fasting are we more likely to fall into temptation and sin.

That is a different question all together. In order to answer it successfully, one would need to search the scriptures to see what they have to say in regards to the purpose of prayer and fasting. In other words do the scriptures tell us that the roll of fasting is to aid in the resistance of sin, or do they spell out a different function?

[EricH]

The church has always been there to help guide its paritioners. The Bible tells us to pray. I have personally heard people ask, "but how do I pray" The Church give us guidlines to help us. The Bible gives us an example of Jesus fasting and praying for 40 days. People will ask, "how do I do this" Is it not the role of the Church to guide its people and give them guidlines on how they can lead a Jesus filled life?

God Bless,

K.D.

And the Bible itself gives us guidlines:

He was praying in a certain place, and when He finished, one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples." He said to them, "Whenever you pray, say: Father, Your name be honored as holy. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone in debt to us. And do not bring us into temptation."

Luke 11:1-4 HCSB

Other than leading a person to this text, and helping them study it, what could the church add to this?

So you are saying the only thing the Church can guide us to concerning prayer is this prayer and nothing else?

I did not say (or assert) anything. I asked you a question regarding what the church could add to what scripture clearly spells out. Since you were the one making the assertion that we need the church to teach us how to pray, I would be interested in what other materials they have on the subject in addition to what Jesus instructed his followers when asked the very same question.

There is a key issue here. I have no problem with any church or christian leader, helping someone learn the spritual disciplines. There are things I have learned over time, that someone else may find helpful. But, I am limited in my ability to prescribe things to others in a detail that scripture itself does not prescribe.

For example, I have found it helpful to memorize scripture using a scripture memory system developed by the Navigators (The TMS). There are several passages in scripture that tell us we should be "hiding God's word in our hearts". So I am free to tell people they need to do find a way to do this. I am also free to show them the system I have found to be helpful. I am not free to tell people they need to use the system I have found to be helpful. Scripture does not say "hide God's word in your heart using the Navigator TMS"

The same is true of Lent. I believe fasting is a legitimate spiritual discipline. I am free to tell people they need to do this. I am also free to offer opportunities for them to practice this (of which Lent could be one). I am not free, however, to elevate these opportunities to "requirements in God's sight", if scripture does not so spell them out.

[EricH]

I don't care what you do. I am just asking, are you going to follow the example that Jesus gave us. I would also ask you this. If you don't follow the example of Jesus Christ, have you committed a sin?

So your logic here seems to be that everything Jesus did, we should do. Is that correct?

No, I am not arguing that we must follow his exact actions. I don't live near a desert. It must be measured in the spirit of the message not the letter of the action. But also keep in mind that Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and nights and after this time he was tempted. This is how he prepared for what was to come. Can you not see an example of how we can prepare ourselves to face temptations. This is the example Jesus gives us. Not the step by step instructions but the message. Prayer and Fasting will help you deal with temptations. So given this example, people will ask, OK how do we go about doing this. The Church in turn give guidelines for how a person can go about doing this very thing.

I don't think anyone would have a problem if any church said, "Jesus fasted in preparation for a period of temptation, We encourage you to do like wise, and even will provide a time for us to do so corporately." What people are concerned about (and I think rightly so) is the addition of the idea that if you do not do as the church says, at the prescribed time, and in a prescribed manner (if these things are not prescribed by scripture), you have committed a sin.

[Kansasdad]

I don't care what you do. I am just asking, are you going to follow the example that Jesus gave us. I would also ask you this. If you don't follow the example of Jesus Christ, have you committed a sin?

So your logic here seems to be that everything Jesus did, we should do. Is that correct?

No, I am not arguing that we must follow his exact actions. I don't live near a desert. It must be measured in the spirit of the message not the letter of the action. But also keep in mind that Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and nights and after this time he was tempted. This is how he prepared for what was to come. Can you not see an example of how we can prepare ourselves to face temptations. This is the example Jesus gives us. Not the step by step instructions but the message. Prayer and Fasting will help you deal with temptations. So given this example, people will ask, OK how do we go about doing this. The Church in turn give guidelines for how a person can go about doing this very thing.

I don't think anyone would have a problem if any church said, "Jesus fasted in preparation for a period of temptation, We encourage you to do like wise, and even will provide a time for us to do so corporately." What people are concerned about (and I think rightly so) is the addition of the idea that if you do not do as the church says, at the prescribed time, and in a prescribed manner (if these things are not prescribed by scripture), you have committed a sin.

And I still am curious from any of the documentation he provided where it says this. Obligation from the church does not equal mortal sin. He has interchanged the two with out support for doing so.

I am not aware of any priest who says, Hmmm that Methodist is not observing lent and therefore has committed mortal sin.