Confession and Forgiveness of sins

[Thaddaeus]

Horizoneast,

You clearly do not really understand the concept. Nor the concept of sequence. Christ has all authority given to Him in Heaven and on earth. In the text of John 20:23. This is after Christ has been glorified after His Resurrection. He gives the Holy Spirit to the Disciples and confers upon them the authority to forgive sins. How clear can one make it? Obviously, it cannot be blasphemous to God. It is only blasphemous to your way of thinking and interpretation.

It does not mean that the Apostles could do this because they propitiated for those sins which is the meaning of your thinking.

[Fiosh]

Those who are arguing that man cannot forgive sin are absolutely right. They are also missing the point and ignoring Scripture and Jesus' own words to His Apostles.

Read it again:

John 20 : 23 says " If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"

It's clear. Jesus is giving HIS power to the Apostles---and by succession, to priests.

If you do not agree, please explain what you think Jesus meant when He said, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven".

Yes, it is certainly God who forgives sin; the priest represents Jesus, and is used by God as an instrument of forgiveness of sin.

(Before you jump all over me for my use of the phrase "represents Jesus", remember that we are all called to represent Jesus to the world.)

Peace,

Fiosh

[Metropolitan]

Ok, lets suppose that there were some transgressions that the priests wudnt want to forgive....Because the verse also gives the provision to not to forgive the sins as well...Who will justify the clergyman's action? For all you know, the sinner might be transformed, and repentant!

[Thaddaeus]

horizoneast,

John 20:23 does not refer to the Romish concept of confession - it speaks of the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

that is simply your assertion with no grounds. The Apostle John, who is ascribed the author of this Book, wrote it just prior to his death, sometime between 96AD - 100 AD. Thus, by the time that he wrote this book, the Church has been in existance for 60 years. It has been established, the practices established, the Truth clearly explained to the early Church in all locations by all the Apostles. What you have here is a clear explanation of what has been going on and what was accepted as practice within the early Church. Other Church Fathers, subsequent have all acknowledged this as to the meaning and practice.

It is what it is, notwithstanding any assertion on your part.

You also confuse the whole issue here of forgiveness of sins, and the fact that Christ is our only mediator. These are not the same thing. But that is another issue.

[Thaddaeus]

Metropolitan,

Ok, lets suppose that there were some transgressions that the priests wudnt want to forgive....Because the verse also gives the provision to not to forgive the sins as well...Who will justify the clergyman's action? For all you know, the sinner might be transformed, and repentant!

All one needs do is go back to scripture again. Have you read the Lord's Prayer carefully. Do you understand the meaning of the phrases, forgiven treaspasses as WE forgive those who treaspass against us.

In a sin with another, the Priest will ask if you have already sought forgiveness of your brother. If you have not, he will also not forgive your sin to God, until you first forgive him. Quite simple, really. If you expect God to forgive you, then you must first forgive also. There will be no unfaithful servant issue with God.

Here is another aspect of forgiveness which some of you seem to miss as well. When one confesses to a Priest, it better be a full confession, especially of a known sin. One cannot hold back a sin and not confess it. If you think that the Priest will forgive, even though you have not admitted, neither will God, even if the Priest says so. You cannot fool God. He does know your heart. Thus, the person cannot be repentant, if he is truthful that he has not forgiven his brother.

You think you can fool the priest, but you cannot fool God, it will simply add to your condemnation.

[Fiosh]

Ok, lets suppose that there were some transgressions that the priests wudnt want to forgive....Because the verse also gives the provision to not to forgive the sins as well...Who will justify the clergyman's action? For all you know, the sinner might be transformed, and repentant!

It's difficult for you to understand, Metro, I know, because you have never experienced the grace of the Sacrament of Confession. There is a transformation that occurs in the priest as he acts in the place of Christ. I've seen it in my own confessor---my pastor. Frankly, he ain't got the best people skills. Yet, when I meet him in confession, there is a tangible difference. I can feel the Presence of Jesus as I speak with my priest. There is acceptance, warmth and forgiveness in that place; along with Spirit-filled words of instruction.

To answer your question, the priest practices discernment in the Spirit. He would never withold forgiveness to a repentant sinner. In fact, to my knowledge, it rarely happens. It is only in the face of blatant unrepentance that a priest would withold forgiveness. For example, a sinner comes to confess drunkeness and says, "Could you hurry it up, father, the bar closes in an hour."

To be forgiven of sin, we must have not only sorrow, but a conviction to avoid that sin in the future---a "turning away" from the sin.

What do you think "the provision to not to forgive the sins " means?

Peace,

Fiosh

[Phil.2:12]

KD...I dont know which version of the bible you have quoted ...But both the KJV and the NIV says it is 'repent' and not 'penance' as quoted by you..Here is the verse in NIV

Luk 13: 3 " I tell you no, But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

where does it say to do penance or confess to a priest, and he will forgive your sins??

The translation being used to show the word "penance" is probably the Douay version translated out of the latin Vulgate which, in turn, was translated by Jerome from the original Greek centirues ago. The Douay version came out in the 1600's, about the same time as the King James English version made it's appearance and is considered to be the only authoritative version for Roman Catholics. When we try to justify doctrine on the basis of one word, "penance" for example, and do not consult the original Greek for the Greek meaning of that particular word, we often times wind up in a mess, theologically speaking.

Dr. A.T. Roertson, in his "Word Pictures in the New Testament" Vol.2 states that the Greek definition of the word translated "Penance" in the Douay version and "repent" in other versions (like KJV or NIV) means "to change mind and conduct" and is in the active voice meaning a linear action that keeps on going, just like the Energizer Bunny. The result is a lifestyle that continues to change one's mind and conduct in accordance with Paul's instructions to continually mortify (or kill) the deeds of the flesh. The syntax is a third class conditional clause which means that the outcome of the mortification of the deeds of the flesh is undetermined, but the chances are quite good that they will be mortified. In the Douay version, at least as practiced by the RC church the clause "except ye do penance" is seen as a point in time, (aorist tense) not a continuous linear action (present tense). If the Douay was interpreted as the Greek wrote it, then it would mean that the penance would continue on with no end in sight, which would become exponentally burdensome with each penance that was added to the confessors list of penances.

Best to go back to the original languages whenever there is a dispute with what a word means in Scripture.

Edited March 10, 2007 by Phil.2:12

[CaritateDei]

You will have the correct answer to your inquiry if you can correctly answer this question: Can a sinful Catholic priest forgive his own sins?

Nope, he can't. Acknowledging his sins, he no longer acts in persona Christi. I know you'll make some smart remark about whether or not the padre taught me this in parochial school, so what I'm saying won't help you, but it may help someone with an open mind.

[GardenDove]

The Pope also goes to confession, and has a private confessor. It's a very healthy practise to go to frequent confession to keep on top of things. It's great for our relationship with God.

[Smalcald]

I have a question for our Catholic and Orthodox friends.

When the priest hears confession does he proclaim God's forgiveness, or is he proclaiming his forgiveness?