The Role of Women in the New Testament Church

[Ovedya]

Following is a split from the thread titled "Apostolic Failure" thread.

Originally I was going to split these off and paste them in "Should Women Remain Silent in the Churches," but I thought better of it, and decided that there are really two subjects that were spawned from the original discussion:

1) The Role of Women in the New Testament Church: Apostolic authority and the offices of the church as they pertain to women.

2) The Reliability and Sufficiency of the Bible as the complete and true Word of God.

Attached to this posting are the posts split from "Apostolic Failure" that I believe pertain to the above two matters.

Please let's continue with this "lively" discussion!

[Ovedya]

Hey Peter,

In your initial post you mentioned, Is it "Sola Scriptura" or "Sola Cultura?" Actually it's neither; it's solely and completely about Jesus! Hallelujah!

As you know, "Sola Scriptura" was the Reformation mantra, rejecting tradition or church decrees as having any authority. And yet another well known saying in hermeneutics is "A Text without a Context is a Pretext - an assumed meaning that often misses the authors intent." If we really believe in the authority of scripture, then we must do our best to understand what the scripture meant to the 1st Century hearer, before we can interpret it and apply it to our lives today. We must do our diligence to study and understand the Culture because it is a very important element of the Context of any passage of scripture. If we fail to understand the context (literary, cultural, social, authorial, historical, etc.) then we can very easily fail to interpret the passage correctly.

We must also be careful not to fall into legalism.

The Beacon Dictionary of Theology defines legalism as, (1) a dependence on law keeping as a means of salvation, and/or (2) an excessive bondage to the letter of the law which misses its intent and which fails to be motivated by love.

[Ovedya]

Well.......

That didn't work out very well, did it?

Honestly.....I don't know what happened there. I tried to merge the posts, but they all merged together as one post, instead of being individual posts in this thread.

Well.....I suppose if you have the time to sort it out, you could try to follow along. My eyes are beginning to cross now from moving 152 posts over from that thread....

Sorry, saints.

[Floatingaxe]

OY!!

[In The Presence Of The King]

it's ok. Um ovedya I remember you said that based on what I was saying the Bible is not necessary, but I didn't mean that. The Bible is a framework for which all beliefs, and all spiritual things claiming goodness should fit into. It should never be ousted, never be misused, and never ever be denied it's holiness. However, as I was saying about the whole women thing that was cultural. Part of taking the Bible in context is to look at the culture. For instance, old jewish law like in Leviticus, were laws meant for the Israelites at that time. they are useful for our understanding of the culture of the Jewish people, and also to help understand the purpose of the Bible which is a story of God's love. When you look at the culture of the time in the Bible you realize all the symbolism that is in the Bible that we don't normally see because we have a different culture.

[Floatingaxe]

Um, Ovedya--I think this thread needs an overhaul, hon.

[Emily~Anne]

I have a headache now.

[firehill]

Ovedya:...1) The Role of Women in the New Testament Church: Apostolic authority and the offices of the church as they pertain to women.

K, regarding the authority of an apostle:

Romans 16 tells us of a woman apostle, Junia. In fact, in 1 Co 12:28, Paul lists this position as 'first', and 'second' he lists 'prophets' ...according to God's divine appointment.

28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Women then indeed have held the highest position within the body, that of apostle.

'Now early in this century a very famous German scholar, Hans Lietzmann, who was a superb philologian, made an investigation into all surviving names of antiquity and came to the conclusion that the name Junias did not exist -- that the name Junianus existed and that the name Junias is possible as a short form for the name Junianus, but there was no evidence that it was ever used. So he says philologically you cannot bring evidence that this was a man Junias rather than a woman Junia, but he says that since it's not thinkable that a woman was an apostle, we have to read the male name Junias. And later commentaries say we have to read the male name Junias, because Hans Lietzmann has brought the philological evidence. Well,... he has done the evidence. He has done the opposite! So, no question -- scholars agree today that indeed Romans 16 contains reference to a female apostle named Junia, whom Paul recognized as an apostle before him. '

There is alot of other info regarding Junia, in a commentary here:

http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/rom16.htm

[firehill]

We also need to get past the belief that Paul actually wrote or even agreed that, "As in all the churches of God's people, the women should keep quiet in the meetings. They are not allowed to speak; as the Jewish Law says, they must not be in charge. If they want to find out about something, they should ask their husbands at home. It is a disgraceful thing for a woman to speak in a church meeting." This is not the Paul of history! There is a very strong case to be made that this was added to Paul's genuine letter at least 50 years after Paul's martyrdom. See http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/1co14v33.htm for more details.

I found the above at the same site. Hum

http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/rom16.htm

[Kansasdad]

Ovedya:...1) The Role of Women in the New Testament Church: Apostolic authority and the offices of the church as they pertain to women.

K, regarding the authority of an apostle:

Romans 16 tells us of a woman apostle, Junia. In fact, in 1 Co 12:28, Paul lists this position as 'first', and 'second' he lists 'prophets' ...according to God's divine appointment.

28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Women then indeed have held the highest position within the body, that of apostle.

'Now early in this century a very famous German scholar, Hans Lietzmann, who was a superb philologian, made an investigation into all surviving names of antiquity and came to the conclusion that the name Junias did not exist -- that the name Junianus existed and that the name Junias is possible as a short form for the name Junianus, but there was no evidence that it was ever used. So he says philologically you cannot bring evidence that this was a man Junias rather than a woman Junia, but he says that since it's not thinkable that a woman was an apostle, we have to read the male name Junias. And later commentaries say we have to read the male name Junias, because Hans Lietzmann has brought the philological evidence. Well,... he has done the evidence. He has done the opposite! So, no question -- scholars agree today that indeed Romans 16 contains reference to a female apostle named Junia, whom Paul recognized as an apostle before him. '

There is alot of other info regarding Junia, in a commentary here:

http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/rom16.htm

Latin Vulgate

Douay-Rheims Bible

6 Salute Mary, who hath laboured much among you. 7 Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NIV:

7Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

KJV:

7Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Darby translation:

7Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me.

Young's Literal Translation :

7salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

NAB:

Greet Andronicus and Junia, 5 my relatives and my fellow prisoners; they are prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me.

Foot notes:

] The name Junia is a woman's name. One ancient Greek manuscript and a number of ancient versions read the name "Julia." Most editors have interpreted it as a man's name, Junias.

Either a feminine name or Junias, a masculine name

Interesting