The Role of Women in the New Testament Church

[Ovedya]

I am of the firm belief that if you have to devise something to antagonize, taking quotes from other posts and threads and making them say something out of context, you are operating at a major deficit.

I must be doing something right!

I am thinking you may be in violation of good manners and taste, not to mention good breeding, Christ-likeness.

I pity you, and will pray that the Lord will soften your hearts and teach you humility.

Good breeding?

Don't start again, please.

[Ovedya]

Everyone regardless of gender are commanded to GO and spread the word.

But Men alone are given the authority to preach IN the church.

Whatever, Giaour. That just is not so. Preaching is not something women are not gifted for! Women receive such unction by the Holy Spirit and speak with such passion and knowledge on some subjects that only they can do! God does not deny congregations the priviledge of hearing the wisdom of a great woman of God. Man does that....

You know, preaching does not mean authority, if that's what you are thinking.

Actually Giaor is correct.

The preaching of the gospel of Christ is not forbidden to anyone.

Yet there is a significant difference, as pointed out many times in this thread and the others, that teaching as an authority in the church (Affirming and establishing the orthodox doctrines of the church) is a different matter.

The problem has arisen that "preaching" is a traditional term in Christendom that mixes the two functions. One may go today to a Baptist congregation and hear the "preaching" of a pastor. And some in that congregation might also go out and "preach" the gospel. Yet nowhere int eh Bible are these terms used in the same fashion.

[Ovedya]

Everyone regardless of gender are commanded to GO and spread the word.

But Men alone are given the authority to preach IN the church.

Whatever, Giaour. That just is not so. Preaching is not something women are not gifted for! Women receive such unction by the Holy Spirit and speak with such passion and knowledge on some subjects that only they can do! God does not deny congregations the priviledge of hearing the wisdom of a great woman of God. Man does that....

You know, preaching does not mean authority, if that's what you are thinking.

Noone is stopping women from preaching in the world.

Biblically, though, preachers IN THE CHURCH are to be men.

Noone is saying that women do not have gifts to preach but those gifts must remain within Biblical standards.

If a woman has such great wisdom, she would know that her preaching is to be done outside the realms of the pulpit.

Preach on sister but do it within the guidelines of God's word.

Such a misunderstood directive. We are not told not to preach at all. Paul speaks directly to a particular problem with one woman who was leading the church at Ephesus astray, not silencing Godly women. Paul desired only reliable women to be in ministry.

In 2 Timothy 2:2 we read:

And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.

The word used for "people" is "anthropos"---persons...genderless! People are called to preach, but not that particular woman in Ephesus.

Ya know I've wondered about this myself many times. Paul does only address 'a woman' in the singular and not 'women' or 'men' like he did in the preceeding verses. ofcourse this is overlooked by the literalist. Literaly that is just what Paul is speaking about. Then only after he speaks of Adam and Eve then he uses the plural pronoun 'they' meaning 'husband and wife'. Even in v.15 the Greek is 'she' not 'women'. Cool, Axe.

Yeah , the literalists can't deny either that Paul used 'I' instead of 'a command from the Lord'.

And the revisionist enjoys the employment of such terms in order to prove that the Bible is not the complete Word of God.

You don't believe or trust the Bible, in my opinion.

[Ovedya]

Just checking in again and see we are still going at it, now I see we are disecting the plurality of one word or not, please.

But does anyone here who believes that only men should be ordained to be Bishops, Deacons and Elders, believe that women should NOT preach and proclaim the Gospel? Preaching is NOT the same thing as holding one of these biblically defined office, it is not an overseer. I have gained greatly from women preachers and women delivering homilies.

I wonder if some of this confusion arises becuase we have seen a breakdown in any concept of church authority and structure in general?

That is absolutely the case, Smalcald!

[apothanein kerdos]

Just an FYI,

Most cult leaders of the modern age generally never attended college.

Most teachers of false doctrine, if they attended college, often received their degree at a liberal institute. I can't think of a single preacher with a degree from a conservative institute that is teaching false doctrine.

Drop the bitterness Whysoblind...your comments were unnecessary and rude.

[Fiosh]

My only argument is that Scripture clearly instructs women to not have authority over men in the Church. Evangelism is everyone's calling.

There has been no breakdown of authority in my church structure.

Sure there has. It broke down over a millenia ago when the prophets and individual believers quit judging what the so-called popes, priests, bishops, deacons, cardinals, etc, etc were telling them; when the people just mindlessly accept anything you say because "You know better". Just because I don't believe a christian should read everything under the sun about false religions and false philosophies doesn't mean I have to let myself be brainwashed by man-made heirarchies and legalistic bondage, or some self-styled "master of the law" telling me how to live for God.

If I lived my life the way some people on these boards expect everyone of "inferior" education or church postion to just jump when Dr. Dave or Reverend Roy says so, well I know for a fact I'd be in hell right now. So many of the church "leaders" in both the protestant and catholic church are leading their troop of loyal "ists" and "ites" to hell. People think of a "cult" as just something like Jim Jones or some other group of fringe lunatics, but they aren't always so obvious, and every "christian-like" cult starts with a group of people who get it into their heads that they are the only ones capable of understanding or interpreting the Bible.

It starts with, only Reverend Roy, Deacon Don, and Doctor Dave can read the Bible, after all, they've got all the degrees, they've got the revelation, they've got all the books, etc, we "sheep" are too stupid to know how to read the Bible for ourselves, so we have to just believe everything they say. It starts as "innocent" satellite christianity, and it festers till everyone in the congregation thinks the pastor or denominational leader, or pope or bishop, is God's sole mouthpiece on the earth because he's got one more degree than the next person, or for some other reason.

Theres a household name preacher I could name right now, and last time I watched one of his broadcasts was a few years ago when my dad was still alive, we were sitting there watching this telecast, and the people were absolutely going nuts over his every word, because "Oh, the big man with the degrees and the alleged "anointing" is here, and we little idiots have to believe every word he says."And he so perverted the few scriptures he used in his "sermon", and the people gobbled up every word because "Dr. so and so" MUST be right. HES THE PASTOR. He's gotta be right, after all. And the people were throwing their money that God gave them up on his platform, next to the pulpit, by the handfulls, and some of them would die for this man, this wolf who devours their very living with promises of blessing and anointing and wisdom.

I know the spirit of a cult because it is one I've had some experience with, and it is one that starts with, "I'm the pastor, I'm the pope, I'm the prophet, I'm the bible scholar, you do as I say..."

Hey WhySoBlind,

Once again I agree with much of what you say. Most TV/radio/NY Bestseller list preachers nauseate me. Yes, a cult does start with one man claiming to have the totality of Biblical wisdom.

And that's why I'm Catholic.

Because I agree with you. Man, left to his own devices, will profane the Word of God for his own purposes. That is precisely why Jesus not only gave us the Gospel (by the way I answered your question in the other thread); He also instituted a Church. You may certainly disagree that it now lives on as the RCC; but I don't see how you could deny that Jesus was building a visible, hierarchical church, as well as a spiritual, invisible Body.

That Church---guided by the Holy Spirit --is what guards and teaches the doctrinal truths. That does not mean that I need to

"quit judging what the so-called popes, priests, bishops, deacons, cardinals, etc, etc were telling.....and.... mindlessly accept anything (they) say". I am free and encouraged to prayerfully search the Scriptures to deepen my faith. But it does mean that I cannot create my own doctrines based on my own individual interpretations. For, as you yourself pointed out, that is how heresy begins.

The Church is also responsible for defining roles within the Church for the clergy and the laity; and who is able to fill those roles. The RCC has clearly defined guidelines for what women can and cannot do.

Without a hierarchical, structural Church to uphold these parameters, we would have had women priests and gay bishops long ago.

Just as a side note...the RCC acknowledges that even the Pope is "Servant of the servants of God". Authority does not equal worth or importance.

I love being a woman! I don't want your job. And, I believe that women have a beautiful, blessed and worthy role in the Church.

God bless you, WSB.

Fiosh

[Fiosh]

Most cult leaders of the modern age generally never attended college.

To be fair, many holy, inspired and deeply faithful followers of Christ never had an education.

[apothanein kerdos]

Most cult leaders of the modern age generally never attended college.

To be fair, many holy, inspired and deeply faithful followers of Christ never had an education.

Right, and I agree with you. I'm simply trying to point out that all of this, "You went to college and I don't care" attitude is absurd. Especially when we look at history and see that often it is the un-educated that harm Christianity the most...with the educated following shortly thereafter.

There are many uneducated people who have helped Christianity...but they also didn't criticize those that took the time to learn, or equivocate them to cult leaders.

Whysoblind should know where I stand on this. I did send him a PM (which he didn't respond to) showing how I have no problem with uneducated believers so long as they don't attack those of us that have learned the intellectual aspects of the faith. Likewise, those who study should not look down on the unstudied...God may have not called them to understand certain tenets, but this merely makes them more apt to reach out to the common man.

For instance, I'm listening to a debate right now from an Irish radio station. It's between a Christian (lay) apologist (and columnist) David Quinn and Richard Dawkins. David Quinn is not specialized in Apologetics, but he has studied it enough that he is able to hold his own against Dawkins. The farmer in Ireland who has only read the Bible will not be able to put up a good defense against the likes of Richard Dawkins. It might be sufficient for the farmer, but for the skeptic it won't do much. However, people such as JP Moreland, Bill Craig, and others can destroy Dawkins' arguments and allow for skeptics to see a fair view.

Alternatively, Craig and Moreland are going to have a harder time witnessing to a lost Irish farmer than the Christian Irish farmer would. We all have our places to fill.

[Kabowd]

So we're back to blaming everything on people who pursue an education? Why must every single topic have someone bashing those who study and learn and making them out to be ogre's, arrogant, comparing them to atheists and now to cultists? It's getting ridiculous. It's absolutely unbiblical (not to mention shows insecurity and immaturity) to constantly be discouraging others from studying or making rude comments about those who do.

Regarding the topic, it is FAR more likely that people who are uneducated and ignorant will follow someone with doctrine that is not sound....which, in fact, is why the New Testament is filled with admonition to avoid false doctrine and false teachers. The way we do that is by studying to know the truth, not by being ignorant.

[Fiosh]

it is FAR more likely that people who are uneducated and ignorant will follow someone with doctrine that is not sound....

I think people get defensive because of comments like this, Kabowd.

It's simply not true.

My father only went as far as 8th grade, but he loved Jesus and knew truth. He also recognized falsehood when it stared him in the face. "I am the Good Shepherd and I know mine and mine know Me"

Plenty of well-to-do educated people get duped by doctrine that tells them things they want to hear. One word......."Scientology".....for example.

Maybe those of us who are educated should show more respect for those of us who are not book smart. And those of us who are filled with the Spirit without the benefit of higher education should try to be a little less defensive of intellect.