A hypotethical situation

[Phil.2:12]

If they were the very first believers it would be identical of course. But since we know that after Pentecost we started having divisions from the very earliest Churches then I think we can say that they would be different at some level.

If they had ever lived in the earth than they would have been influenced by doctrines and thoughts of men and sin, and would have different doctrines, but I don't know if that would be a bad thing.

But this is not really hypothetical. We can see throughout history a continual basic disunity, unless we believe that there has never been a case since the resurrection of people being influenced by the Holy Spirit and thus all of our doctrines are polluted with sin.

The person to me I don't trust is the person who says they don't have any doctrine that they are the only ones who are totally influenced by the holy spirit and thus are pure.

Interesting Smalcald, Since you stated "The person to me I don't trust is the person who says they don't have any doctrine that they are the only ones who are totally influenced by the holy spirit and thus are pure" then I take it that you would have had a hard time listening to the Apostles, for what you state is intolerable to you is exactly what the Apostles had to work with. All they had was the Holy Spirit and yet, they taught the same gospel no matter where they were.There is no evidence that James, for example, sought out Paul or even Peter before he sent his letter to the people he was writing to in order to get proper clearance for the content of his letter. And if you believe, as many do, that Paul did not write the letter to the Hebrews, then you might conclude that the writer of Hebrews subjected his letter to peer review before he sent it to the Hebrews he was writing to.

The purpose of this hypothetical question was to garner discussion on how the Holy Spirit works today. In fact, this question is not really hypothetical at all because this is exactly how the Holy Spirit got the Word of God out to the early church. There was no Amazon river, but there were regions of the world being visited by the Apostles that were virtually isolated from each other, just as the tribes on each side of the Amazon were isolated from each other and thereby unable to compare notes on what was being taught.

What this thread has illustrated is just how easy it is for personal views to influence a given situation and this actually points out just how easy it is for false doctrine to be inserted into the doctrines of the various denominations. Then the people who are taught these doctrines believe that what they have been taught is the Gospel truth. And the deceptions go on and on until they are fiercly defended as the Truth of God by those who believe in these false doctrines because they have been taught by their denomination that these doctrines (that do not line up with the Word of God) are indeed an accurate interpretation of the Word of God.

I wish to thank ALL posters, both those who "got it" and those who did not understand the hypothetical situation and placed their own interpretation of what the hypotheticial situation meant instead of taking the situation at face value. This, fellow posters, is exactly the process by which false doctrines are introduced into the doctrines of any denomination.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Phil.2:12

[RCruise]

Consider the following situation

Two missionaries, totally unfamiliar with each other, plan to preach and teach the Word of God along the banks of the Amazon river in Brazil. One takes the left bank and one takes the right bank but neither is aware of the missionary on the opposite bank.

These two brave souls have no denominational ties of any sort, hence they are completely free of all the doctrines and traditions of men. All they have is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. They are both totally dependant on the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God since neither of them has a theological background. They are totally on their own and totally unaware of each other. Their only teacher is the Holy Spirit which teaches both equally throughout their long journey up the Amazon.

These two missionaries continue up the Amazon to the very headwaters of the mighty Amazon only to find that the headwaters of the Amazon is nothing but a small stream at this point. Both missionaries stay on their respective banks without ever crossing and thereby run the risk of meeting each other. Finally, they come to a tribe that freely hunts and lives on both banks of the Amazon headwaters. The left bank missionary as well as the right bank missonary continue to teach the Word of God to the members of this tribe, each thinking that they are the only missionary teaching the members of this tribe.

What would be the outcome of these two separate teaching styles, one from the left bank missionary and one from the right bank missionary on this tribe that is common to both banks of the river? Remember, both missionaries were guided solely by the Holy Spirit and had only the Word of God to teach from and both are totally lacking in any of the doctrines and traditions of any denomination. When the tribal people began to compare notes on what the two missionaries taught, would there be two distinct versions of the Word of God taught, the left bank version and the right bank version, or would both versions be identical?

I prayed to the Holy Spirit before posting. I even prayed for guidance whether or not to reply.

There are several intrinsic errors in your hypothetical situation.

1. Despite the fact that neither missionary had any Biblical training, they still had different life experiences to draw upon.

2. Unless they were totally surrendered to Jesus, and leading sinless lives, they will hear the Holy Spirit thru their fallen human "ears".

3. and the biggest error.............if they were truly submitted to Christ and able to discern the Spirits voice, they wouldn't be flying solo. They would be fully engaged in, and obedient to, a Church.

God bless,

Fiosh

WHOA!!!!

1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"?

2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life??

3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him.

We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ.

[Kabowd]

Interesting Smalcald, Since you stated "The person to me I don't trust is the person who says they don't have any doctrine that they are the only ones who are totally influenced by the holy spirit and thus are pure"then I take it that you would have had a hard time listening to the Apostles, for what you state is intolerable to you is exactly what the Apostles had to work with. All they had was the Holy Spirit and yet, they taught the same gospel no matter where they were.There is no evidence that James, for example, sought out Paul or even Peter before he sent his letter to the people he was writing to in order to get proper clearance for the content of his letter. And if you believe, as many do, that Paul did not write the letter to the Hebrews, then you might conclude that the writer of Hebrews subjected his letter to peer review before he sent it to the Hebrews he was writing to.

The purpose of this hypothetical question was to garner discussion on how the Holy Spirit works today. In fact, this question is not really hypothetical at all because this is exactly how the Holy Spirit got the Word of God out to the early church. There was no Amazon river, but there were regions of the world being visited by the Apostles that were virtually isolated from each other, just as the tribes on each side of the Amazon were isolated from each other and thereby unable to compare notes on what was being taught.

What this thread has illustrated is just how easy it is for personal views to influence a given situation and this actually points out just how easy it is for false doctrine to be inserted into the doctrines of the various denominations. Then the people who are taught these doctrines believe that what they have been taught is the Gospel truth. And the deceptions go on and on until they are fiercly defended as the Truth of God by those who believe in these false doctrines because they have been taught by their denomination that these doctrines that do not line up with the Word of God are indeed an accurate interpretation of the Word of God.

I wish to thank ALL posters, both those who "got it" and those who did not understand the hypothetical situation and placed their own interpretation of what the hypotheticial situation meant instead of taking the situation at face value. This, fellow posters, is exactly the process by which false doctrines are introduced into the doctrines of any denomination.

I do not have alot of time to post at the moment, but I have to interject and state that your posts are not accurate (especially the first paragraph here). It is not accurate to state that the Apostles "only had the Holy Spirit". This ignores oral and written tradtion which had been handed down for generations, not to mention the physical presence of Jesus and His teachings. And again, the Apostles were divinely inspired while writing the Scriptures..but this does not mean they did not have disagreements or differences among themselves apart from when they wrote the gospels. They were human, fallen men just like the rest of us.

I think there is a huge misunderstanding regarding the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers. Ill have to post more later....

[Scarletprayers]

Consider the following situation

Two missionaries, totally unfamiliar with each other, plan to preach and teach the Word of God along the banks of the Amazon river in Brazil. One takes the left bank and one takes the right bank but neither is aware of the missionary on the opposite bank.

These two brave souls have no denominational ties of any sort, hence they are completely free of all the doctrines and traditions of men. All they have is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. They are both totally dependant on the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God since neither of them has a theological background. They are totally on their own and totally unaware of each other. Their only teacher is the Holy Spirit which teaches both equally throughout their long journey up the Amazon.

These two missionaries continue up the Amazon to the very headwaters of the mighty Amazon only to find that the headwaters of the Amazon is nothing but a small stream at this point. Both missionaries stay on their respective banks without ever crossing and thereby run the risk of meeting each other. Finally, they come to a tribe that freely hunts and lives on both banks of the Amazon headwaters. The left bank missionary as well as the right bank missonary continue to teach the Word of God to the members of this tribe, each thinking that they are the only missionary teaching the members of this tribe.

What would be the outcome of these two separate teaching styles, one from the left bank missionary and one from the right bank missionary on this tribe that is common to both banks of the river? Remember, both missionaries were guided solely by the Holy Spirit and had only the Word of God to teach from and both are totally lacking in any of the doctrines and traditions of any denomination. When the tribal people began to compare notes on what the two missionaries taught, would there be two distinct versions of the Word of God taught, the left bank version and the right bank version, or would both versions be identical?

I prayed to the Holy Spirit before posting. I even prayed for guidance whether or not to reply.

There are several intrinsic errors in your hypothetical situation.

1. Despite the fact that neither missionary had any Biblical training, they still had different life experiences to draw upon.

2. Unless they were totally surrendered to Jesus, and leading sinless lives, they will hear the Holy Spirit thru their fallen human "ears".

3. and the biggest error.............if they were truly submitted to Christ and able to discern the Spirits voice, they wouldn't be flying solo. They would be fully engaged in, and obedient to, a Church.

God bless,

Fiosh

WHOA!!!!

1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"?

2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life??

3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him.

We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ.

Phil and RC, please before you get out of the book of Acts there are division, this HOLY SPIRIT only is what causes division. Nobody even the Apostles were so pure they didn't have discord between them.

[firehill]

We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ.

[firehill]

If they were the very first believers it would be identical of course. But since we know that after Pentecost we started having divisions from the very earliest Churches then I think we can say that they would be different at some level.

If they had ever lived in the earth than they would have been influenced by doctrines and thoughts of men and sin, and would have different doctrines, but I don't know if that would be a bad thing.

But this is not really hypothetical. We can see throughout history a continual basic disunity, unless we believe that there has never been a case since the resurrection of people being influenced by the Holy Spirit and thus all of our doctrines are polluted with sin.

The person to me I don't trust is the person who says they don't have any doctrine that they are the only ones who are totally influenced by the holy spirit and thus are pure.

What this thread has illustrated is just how easy it is for personal views to influence a given situation and this actually points out just how easy it is for false doctrine to be inserted into the doctrines of the various denominations. Then the people who are taught these doctrines believe that what they have been taught is the Gospel truth. And the deceptions go on and on until they are fiercly defended as the Truth of God by those who believe in these false doctrines because they have been taught by their denomination that these doctrines (that do not line up with the Word of God) are indeed an accurate interpretation of the Word of God.

[RCruise]

Consider the following situation

Two missionaries, totally unfamiliar with each other, plan to preach and teach the Word of God along the banks of the Amazon river in Brazil. One takes the left bank and one takes the right bank but neither is aware of the missionary on the opposite bank.

These two brave souls have no denominational ties of any sort, hence they are completely free of all the doctrines and traditions of men. All they have is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. They are both totally dependant on the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God since neither of them has a theological background. They are totally on their own and totally unaware of each other. Their only teacher is the Holy Spirit which teaches both equally throughout their long journey up the Amazon.

These two missionaries continue up the Amazon to the very headwaters of the mighty Amazon only to find that the headwaters of the Amazon is nothing but a small stream at this point. Both missionaries stay on their respective banks without ever crossing and thereby run the risk of meeting each other. Finally, they come to a tribe that freely hunts and lives on both banks of the Amazon headwaters. The left bank missionary as well as the right bank missonary continue to teach the Word of God to the members of this tribe, each thinking that they are the only missionary teaching the members of this tribe.

What would be the outcome of these two separate teaching styles, one from the left bank missionary and one from the right bank missionary on this tribe that is common to both banks of the river? Remember, both missionaries were guided solely by the Holy Spirit and had only the Word of God to teach from and both are totally lacking in any of the doctrines and traditions of any denomination. When the tribal people began to compare notes on what the two missionaries taught, would there be two distinct versions of the Word of God taught, the left bank version and the right bank version, or would both versions be identical?

Their teaching should be the same. Doctrines however come from men and I would have no doubts that the doctrines would become diverse just based upon normal humanity and the fact that the entire tribe would probably not come to the Gospel or respond to it with their humanity. Consider when Philip (Acts 8) went down to a city in Samaria; He did healings, casting out demons, and the people received his message with "one accord" and with "great joy in that city". But, Simon the sorceror, though he did believe, was after the "power" as it became evident when Peter and John came down to Baptise them in the Holy Ghost for though they believed and were baptised (water) by Philip and, though he possessed many gifts through Faith, Peter and John possessed the gift of laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost.

So, we have two evidences where it would probably not occur that the outcome would be exactly the same;

1. New Believers and their nature coupled with the probabilities that not all will believe or believe whole heartedly.

2. The "severally" varying gifts dispersed throughout the Word indicate the necessity of several members of The Body to complete The Gospel in Christ.

[RCruise]

I prayed to the Holy Spirit before posting. I even prayed for guidance whether or not to reply.

There are several intrinsic errors in your hypothetical situation.

1. Despite the fact that neither missionary had any Biblical training, they still had different life experiences to draw upon.

2. Unless they were totally surrendered to Jesus, and leading sinless lives, they will hear the Holy Spirit thru their fallen human "ears".

3. and the biggest error.............if they were truly submitted to Christ and able to discern the Spirits voice, they wouldn't be flying solo. They would be fully engaged in, and obedient to, a Church.

God bless,

Fiosh

WHOA!!!!

1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"?

2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life??

3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him.

We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ.

Phil and RC, please before you get out of the book of Acts there are division, this HOLY SPIRIT only is what causes division. Nobody even the Apostles were so pure they didn't have discord between them.

I posted my response to Phil and his scenario but, I am not sure what you are driving out here?? Phil's scenario says two missionary both with the Word of God and Holy Spirit. And I will say this time and again; no one is really guided by the Holy Ghost except they have been Baptised in the Holy Ghost. And that does not come except a soul is sold out and in submission to Jesus Christ recognizing Him Alone as God Manifested, God Sacrificed and, God Risen Up from Death conquering Death and The Grave taking our punishment (His Just Punishment for sin) upon Himself for us who Believe. I agree there were minor issues but, that being human nature, The Holy Ghost still "ironed" those out and the Church never missed a beat in His Authority and Leadership (Jesus). Now, do I believe The Holy Spirit of God alone can lead one into one accord with Jesus and be sufficient? You bet I do! And therein lies the mystery that so many are blinded to even within the Church of Jesus Christ.

[Kabowd]

Their teaching should be the same. Doctrines however come from men....

This is like saying, "their teaching would be the same but the teaching however come from men". I'm sorry, but this does not make sense. The Greek word for doctrine is didaskalia, which is basically teaching or instruction.

[Kabowd]

I posted my response to Phil and his scenario but, I am not sure what you are driving out here?? Phil's scenario says two missionary both with the Word of God and Holy Spirit. And I will say this time and again; no one is really guided by the Holy Ghost except they have been Baptised in the Holy Ghost. And that does not come except a soul is sold out and in submission to Jesus Christ recognizing Him Alone as God Manifested, God Sacrificed and, God Risen Up from Death conquering Death and The Grave taking our punishment (His Just Punishment for sin) upon Himself for us who Believe. I agree there were minor issues but, that being human nature, The Holy Ghost still "ironed" those out and the Church never missed a beat in His Authority and Leadership (Jesus). Now, do I believe The Holy Spirit of God alone can lead one into one accord with Jesus and be sufficient? You bet I do! And therein lies the mystery that so many are blinded to even within the Church of Jesus Christ.

There is no scriptural support for what you are advocating here. Perhaps the issue of "baptism of the Holy Ghost" should be reserved for another topic?