Rousing, emotional start for war protest

[Tubal-Cain]

What made the war in Iraq an unjust war?

See post #128 in this thread to see where I'm coming from. (1) The Iraq war was not a war of self-defense and it is debatable whether it was used to correct a grave evil. (2) It was not a war of last resort. (3) Whether we could acheive a just peace through this war was and still is very tenuous.

It is foolish to use UN as a means to legitimize your objection to the Iraq war, that organization has already been discredited.

I haven't appealed to the UN to legitimize my objection to the war. I did bring up a statement by Kofi Annan when tmrfiles claimed that the world governing bodies had spoken and the wrath of God was on Saddam just to show him his error (post #118).

Objecting to the war in Iraq on Scriptural grounds is legitimate, but if you are going to hold the government accountable to Christian standards, then you can't pick and choose what Christian standards you expect the country to adhere to.

I provided scriptural support for just war theory because I was asked. However, just war theory is accepted by plenty of non-Christians because it is moral and rational. In other words, I hold the government accountable to a rational and objective moral standard. I don't try to force a purely religious viewpoint into the sphere of politics. Thus, regarding your questions about abortion, homosexuality, and war, I would not support any attemtps to do politics on purely religious grounds. I would demand that secular reasons be provided for policy stances.

If we're gonna hold our government to Christian standards, then all Christian standards have to be applied.

I'm holding the government to moral standards. Obviously morality and Christianity overlap but, since Christian ethics are rational, I can defend moral viewpoints on purely secular grounds.

[Guest yod]

Frankly I'm not surprised to hear that some people can interpret the bible to fit just about anything. What Yod and the "others" are saying is that God puts into the leadership of nations, those who God has ordained to do his will and God also puts into the leadership of nations, the wicked to rule over the wicked. And if God wills it, the leaders of the "good" nations will punish the wicked.

I think I'm getting a pretty clear picture now why these guys are so hardcore for this war. As long as your side doesn't lose the war, you can use the bible to claim that your side is the "good" and the other side is the "wicked". As long as it remains this way our actions are justified. In fact you can justify attacking any country, the caveat being that you have to win. That, my friends is why Yod and his compatriots believe we MUST win this debacle in Iraq, because if we pull out without "victory" (in their minds) we will be the wicked!

your comprehensive skills are lackluster, bro

that is either;

a. completely ignoring the words I've actually said or

b. an attempt to decieve by mischaracterizing me

I find the protestors (generally) to be intellectually dishonest on many levels and this only reinforces that opinion

I never said anyone was ''good'' in this war. I have only said it is the right decision (because there is a larger strategy that you are not able to see evidently)

I never said God picks sides either. He clearly doesn't

I never said we would win the war. In fact, I have said for years that we might be the ones who get judged

None of that changes what the scriptures say at all. We are to live in humble submission to God and His Word tells us to accept that He is sovereign over all rulers.

This war is being fought in the spiritual realm and that is where victory lies. The prince of Persia is a powerful angel....and he comes against Michael, the archangel protecting Israel.

This war will not stop just because foolish liberals drag us into a pit with them

We are in a war with people who are laughing at the stupidity and cowardice of protests.

I'm all for the rights of protestors to protest...and yet very ashamed of them as an American.

.

[nebula]

nebula, you don't have to choose between harvesting souls and holding a position on the Iraq War. You can do both and so can God. Regarding the civil disobedience in this case, it may have been wrong. However, I've been commenting more on anti-war attitudes than that one example. And civil disobedience is not "open rebellion."

And this is what puzzles me.

Ted, who has been presenting the case for why the US needed to extend its War on Terrorism into Iraq, was quick to answer my question, even though he was not asked to, with what the Scripture says the work of God is. Yet you have yet to admit this Scripture even exists! Where are your priorities, Tubal?

On that day when God is going to judge and/or reward you "according to what you have done," do you honestly believe your stance on this war is going to be remotely high on His priority list?

[Tubal-Cain]

And this is what puzzles me.

Ted, who has been presenting the case for why the US needed to extend its War on Terrorism into Iraq, was quick to answer my question, even though he was not asked to, with what the Scripture says the work of God is. Yet you have yet to admit this Scripture even exists! Where are your priorities, Tubal?

I assumed you were asking what God's will is regarding the Iraq war since that's the topic of the thread. I have not disagreed with Ted's passage or denied its existence. I just don't see how it's relevant in supporting a position on the war.

On that day when God is going to judge and/or reward you "according to what you have done," do you honestly believe your stance on this war is going to be remotely high on His priority list?

I don't claim to know how all my deeds will rank on judgment day. However, I would think my views and intentions regarding war would be important seeing as such things literally effect the lives of millions of people. There is a huge moral difference between the peacemaker and the warmonger that I don't think God will overlook.

[nebula]

I assumed you were asking what God's will is regarding the Iraq war since that's the topic of the thread. I have not disagreed with Ted's passage or denied its existence. I just don't see how it's relevant in supporting a position on the war.

I was asking plain and simple what the "work of God" is. It was claimed that the demonstrators were doing God's work. I was asking about "God's work" - according to scripture, what is God's work - not how God views the Iraq war.

I don't claim to know how all my deeds will rank on judgment day. However, I would think my views and intentions regarding war would be important seeing as such things literally effect the lives of millions of people. There is a huge moral difference between the peacemaker and the warmonger that I don't think God will overlook.

In the Old Testament, the Lord speaks many times about using one nation against another for His will to be done, and there is no indication that the attacking nations were motivated by "just war" theory. As for "warmongering", do you think King David was a "warmongerer"? Funny, he got in trouble when he stayed home from a battle "during the time when kings go out to war." Go figure!

No, I don't see our position on this war being of high importance on the Lord's list. We need to, as Jesus, go about doing the Father's business. And what did Jesus do? He ministered to people. Don't yo think that this is what the Lord is looking for, whether we protest the war or support it, are you ministering the love of God to the people around you?

[nebula]

Are any of us qualified to know what God's will on the war in Iraq is?

John 16

13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

If we don't know what the Holy Spirit has to say, chances are the problem is we aren't making the time and effort to hear from him.

[The Lorax]

The comments on this thread are really discouraging. There are probably too many pages for me to catchup, but the very first page made me a little sick inside.

People who do things to dishearten our own soldiers in time of war, and to give courage and strength to the enemy, ARE TRAITORS AND SABOTEURS working against America.

Protesters AREN'T trying to dishearten soldiers--they are trying to SAVE THEIR LIVES. I have friends in Iraq and they want out. They said THEY will protest as soon as they get back.

And then there are the people who don't seem to understand what planned civil disobedience is. Where were you in history class/life? It isn't an oxymoron. Have you ever heard of Martin Luther King? Or Mahatma Gahndi?

The ignorance here is very discouraging.

[Guest shiloh357]

The comments on this thread are really discouraging. There are probably too many pages for me to catchup, but the very first page made me a little sick inside.

People who do things to dishearten our own soldiers in time of war, and to give courage and strength to the enemy, ARE TRAITORS AND SABOTEURS working against America.

Protesters AREN'T trying to dishearten soldiers--they are trying to SAVE THEIR LIVES. I have friends in Iraq and they want out. They said THEY will protest as soon as they get back.

And then there are the people who don't seem to understand what planned civil disobedience is. Where were you in history class/life? It isn't an oxymoron. Have you ever heard of Martin Luther King? Or Mahatma Gahndi?

The ignorance here is very discouraging.

Actually it is hurting the soldiers. We are dealing with an enemy that is not talking about exit strategies. They are in this to win, while we are looking for a way out.

This tells the Islamic terrorists that America can be defeated. It makes them think that America is not so strong after all. You see, in their minds, they will win. To them, it is an inevitable fact. It does not matter if it it 20 years down the road. Many of them realize that they may not be alive to see the victory, but they believe it will happen so it does not matter them if it happens in their lifetime or not. They are 100% committed to victory, and America is not. Our withdraw now, will only embolden them, and as we implement a phased withdraw, it will only increase the attacks, and may end up bringing more of it on our soil

When Israel withdrew from Gaza it was seen by the terrorists as an affirmation to them, that terrorism works. Israel has completely different reasons for withrdrawing, but the terrorists were content in believing that Israel withdrew because they couldn't take it anymore. Since then, terrorism did not decrease as was predicted. Terrorism and violence agaisnt Israelis only escalated.

The minute you give an inch to these terrorists, that will justify, in their minds, killing you for rest of it. Giving in, running away, historically only emboldens Islaimic terrorists.

Our soldiers are being killed in greater number thanks ot increased calls for withdraws. We could win and win big, but we want to fight anti-septic wars where no innocent people get killed, and that is simply unrealistic.

If we really want to win, we have to make the price tag higher than the terrorists want to pay.

[Guest Biblicist]

My son said he heard they were burning the American Flag, is that true and is that legal?

[Guest shiloh357]

My son said he heard they were burning the American Flag, is that true and is that legal?

I cannot post the link on this board, but yes, in Oregon, there are anti-war protesters who are burning the flag AND are burning effigies of American solidiers as well. They stuffed a military BDU uniform and attacked a skull to it and burned it along with the flag. Along with signs that "f*** the troops." If you want, I can PM you the link.