Spiritual Language (Tongues)

[Floatingaxe]

Even the babes on here can see your hatred towards others Ovedya, TMRfiles, and Vickilynne. You think that is Godly?

What are you talking about? I do not become unglued. Please refrain from personalizing your posts, if you can.

So many Christians ARE missing the fullness of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Shalom FA,

Sorry to offend.

So many Christians are missing the beauty and fullness of observing the Law in glorifying Jesus. Yet every time it is posted, you argue against it. You cannot make a statement that anyone is missing the Holy Spirit since each Believer is filled with the Holy Spirit when they are saved.

I will always be against such a practice, as it goes against what Jesus came and shed His own Lamb's blood for.

Everyone, upon salvation, receives a measure of the Holy Spirit, but there is a baptism of power and anointing by the Holy Spirit that comes later. Just as it did for the New Testament Christians, He continues in that same manner for us today.

Looks like FloatingAx and a certain other here that agree with her false doctrines are going to be left out of the Kingdom of Israel during the mellinium Shame ... Shame... You can keep your replacement theology, I'll take the law of God any day!!

Isaiah 2

3 And many peoples shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of HaShem to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem. 4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Sorry if the Word of God is so very very offensive to you, girl. You can bark at me all you want with your false doctrines and legalism and replacement theology,..bark bark... it's not gunna change God's Word one bit!! Thy Word is Truth John 17:17

Amen Ovedya and Vickilynn!!

How haughty and smug and reeking of schoolyard cliquishness!

[Ovedya]

Of course there is no other requirement for salvation. Why do you think anyone has said so?

The Holy Spirit comes upon a believer to anoint and empower the believer to fulfill his calling. It is often given by the laying on of hands, and often it occurs apart from that. All believers need tio avail themselves of such a baptism.

The problem: There is no doctrine taught by any of the Apostles in the Bible regarding "The Holy Spirit coming upon a believer to anoint and empower the believer to fulfill his calling." All believers are empowered by God according to their function in the Body (Again, Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14). The Bible does not teach that there is another "anointing" or s4eparate experience required for the carrying out of God's economy on the earth. These doctrines were conjured up by man, as I wrote previously, for the most part during the American Pentecostal movement.

[Floatingaxe]

Hi again all,

I agree with what Floatingaxe has said on this subject and add the following:

Consider that this part of scripture (Acts 19) that speaks of the believers who had not been baptised into Jesus or received the Holy Ghost is a perfect scripture to hightlight the problem we have in the church general and even on this board. Consider that it is God Who is drawing our attention to these verses in order that no one here need be ignorant any longer of basic Gospel requirements, and the necessity of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul's concern for the believers that he encountered was apostolic. He made sure that they went no further in their ignorance and powerlessness by confirming the Gospel importance of their repentance and faith, instructing them to be baptized into Jesus Christ, and then laying hands on them for the Holy Spirit.

Paul was direct and to the point about the Gospel requirements which are still the same today. The order is also still the same.

There is no receiving of the Holy Spirit without conversion.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes through the laying on of hands by those with spiritual authority. It can also come directly from God without any laying on of hands provided the Gospel requirements are all in place. It can come at any time subsequent to conversion, accompanied by gifts and signs following including the gift of tongues but not always.

There is a difference between theological knowledge and Spiritual authority. If you don't know the difference, better find out.

Love, EphesiansGal

All believers who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have received the Spirit. There is no separate experience required. Once a believer has the Spirit, he has the Spirit! Acts 19 does not evidence that believers have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit.

You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit. You can paddle around in the spiritually shallow waters all your life and never have the baptism, but why would you want to? It is there for the asking and waiting on your faith to receive. There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit, as many have testified on here. Perhaps you would like to explain why you are so determined to call us all liars by implication?

First, please be careful about what you accuse me of. If I want to call someone a liar I will do so, and will not use any implicative language.

Second, "You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit" contradicts your later statement that, "There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit."

All who are saved are so because the Holy Spirit (Actually, the Triune God) has come to indwell them: John 14:15-24; 17:23; Rom. 8:9; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27. There is no essential need or requirement for salvation that the Spirit come once again to indwell a believer for a particular manifestation or spiritual experience. All believers can access the benefits of the Body of Christ mutually and for the benefit of its building. Read Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14 respectively.

There is no contradiction. You receive Him first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage.

That has yet to be evidenced by Scripture, however.

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

[Ovedya]

Yes it IS a personal attack. The legalism that you and others are trying to offer as an alternative to the simplicity and the liberty that is in Christ is nothing short of demonic and extremely divisive. No wonder Paul warned of the "concision". Read Philippians 3.

I believe that I wrote at one time that the most liberal Christians tend to freely accuse others of being "legalistic." Especially when they have trouble arguing their case. Why don't you allow FA to answer for herself.

So now I am a contemptible person? A dog? An evil worker?

I do speak for myself. Yes you dog me every chance you get, belittling my views and treat me with disrespect.

There is a dearth respect here in Worthy lately. I do feel that your posts have been personally attacking, as well as others.

Could you please point out where I have attacked you? Am I not free to express my experiences of our conversations together simply because they happen to include my perceptions of your personal theological and argumentative flaws?

[Floatingaxe]

Hi Matthew,

The next verse to the one you quoted is this:

"39 The promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Do you believe God has stopped calling people as well? You can't change the scriptures to suit your pet beliefs. The meaning is quite clear. All means all.

Love, EphesiansGal

Its not a false doctrine. It is the truth. Look...

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, "What are we to do, my brothers?"

38

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Its just that simple. Are you going to say that Peter forgot to say that later they would then recieve a "baptism of the spirit". Its very simple. I lack no such gifts. God blesses me daily with spiritual things. He fills me with peace and makes me happy. He gives me the words to speak to others about Christ. He helps me cope with difficult situations. Most imporatantly, he lead me away from drugs. Thats more than I could ever ask for. I am completly in his will. If he wanted me to have gifts he would give them to me. But hes not giving the gifts today. The signs and wonders will happen in the end of times probably after the rapture or esle we would know when it will be. There are no signs and wonders happening today. Nothing nearly as extravagant. And as far as tongues goes, u do know that there are many non-christian relgions that practice tongues as well right? glossalia or whatever its called is either demon induced or its psychological. How could you call that type of tongues a gift of the spirit when even some buddhists use it. Look, I'm not trying to diminish the power of the Holy Spirit in any way but hes just not distributing the gifts today. I've been to pentecostal type groups and all of it can be explained away as psychological. Plus, it in no way seems like what was talked about in the new testament. In conclusion, the gifts were just a way to verify that everything the disciples and Jesus were saying was truly the word of God but now, are no longer needed. God bless. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Yes, I have read that part. The Holy Spirit is for everyone. I'm not changing scripture. Listen, Im talking about the gifts. I have the Holy Spirit within me. Every single believer in Christ does. Look at the verse that says if the spirit is not within you then God does not know you. I feel the Holy Spirit. I listen to it daily.

And please floating axe. When you are going to try to debate something I say, come back with some sort of example or verse for your opinion. All you ever seem to say is this is how it is. Too bad for you. Ephesians girl atleast pulled a verse and then I came back with my own opinion on it. We're humans so each one of us is probably wrong in one thing or another. And you cant say that what vicklyn is saying is false doctrine. Many Christians believe that way. See, Acts is a transitional book. It was bringing about changes. The Spirit came in that way but I believe its clear in Romans(the following book or later on) that it was then something that came with salvation because before people didnt even know what the Holy Spirit was. Anyway, please respond with some evidence or examples of your point or else theres not much point to this thread. Does this make sense to anyone else? Let me know. Thanks. Your brother in Christ, matthew

It is absolutely true that certain details about baptism of the spirit and such are made up through the pentacostal movement. Look at the so called "slain in the spirit". I hope none of you practice this because this is one of the worst examples of false doctrine I have ever seen. I've done my research here and let me tell you that there is absolutly no evidence that anyone in the early church ever practiced this. It is something completly separate for the Bible. Now, I'm not saying that there is nothing good that can come from charasmatic/pentacostal groups. They just have a very bad reputation as it is. And please if you have any verses or evidence for the "slain in the spirit" thing please share it with me. Although, I have found through my research that this whole experience was created by a woman named Maria Woodworth-Etter sometime in the 1880s where she would go into some sort of trance and then fall backwards. This is where the first example comes from, not the Bible. This woman was a false prophet therefore God was not with her. So, she was probably doing Satan's work. We should defintely not follow examples set by Satan's workers. Anyway, sorry for changing the topic. lol. I just don't want anyone falling into something bad. No pun intended! Your brother in JC, matthew

Oh yes, I see your abundance of Scripture here.

Just because people believe what V believes, doesn't mean they are right. I do believe the churches are failing to teach this stuff. Too bad.

[Ovedya]

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

I see. So then I am lacking in Biblical understanding and depth because I have not experienced such a baptism. I should presume from this argument that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to proper theological understanding. In other words I am ignorant because I haven't yet been baptized in the Spirit. How should I not then presume the opposite as well: That you, as well as all others who have experienced such a baptism, must be superior in your depth and understanding of Biblical theology.

Since your understanding of the Bible is so much deeper than mine, please point me to the verses which describe exactly what you are arguing here.

[Ovedya]

Hi Matthew,

The next verse to the one you quoted is this:

"39 The promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Do you believe God has stopped calling people as well? You can't change the scriptures to suit your pet beliefs. The meaning is quite clear. All means all.

Love, EphesiansGal

Its not a false doctrine. It is the truth. Look...

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, "What are we to do, my brothers?"

38

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Its just that simple. Are you going to say that Peter forgot to say that later they would then recieve a "baptism of the spirit". Its very simple. I lack no such gifts. God blesses me daily with spiritual things. He fills me with peace and makes me happy. He gives me the words to speak to others about Christ. He helps me cope with difficult situations. Most imporatantly, he lead me away from drugs. Thats more than I could ever ask for. I am completly in his will. If he wanted me to have gifts he would give them to me. But hes not giving the gifts today. The signs and wonders will happen in the end of times probably after the rapture or esle we would know when it will be. There are no signs and wonders happening today. Nothing nearly as extravagant. And as far as tongues goes, u do know that there are many non-christian relgions that practice tongues as well right? glossalia or whatever its called is either demon induced or its psychological. How could you call that type of tongues a gift of the spirit when even some buddhists use it. Look, I'm not trying to diminish the power of the Holy Spirit in any way but hes just not distributing the gifts today. I've been to pentecostal type groups and all of it can be explained away as psychological. Plus, it in no way seems like what was talked about in the new testament. In conclusion, the gifts were just a way to verify that everything the disciples and Jesus were saying was truly the word of God but now, are no longer needed. God bless. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Yes, I have read that part. The Holy Spirit is for everyone. I'm not changing scripture. Listen, Im talking about the gifts. I have the Holy Spirit within me. Every single believer in Christ does. Look at the verse that says if the spirit is not within you then God does not know you. I feel the Holy Spirit. I listen to it daily.

And please floating axe. When you are going to try to debate something I say, come back with some sort of example or verse for your opinion. All you ever seem to say is this is how it is. Too bad for you. Ephesians girl atleast pulled a verse and then I came back with my own opinion on it. We're humans so each one of us is probably wrong in one thing or another. And you cant say that what vicklyn is saying is false doctrine. Many Christians believe that way. See, Acts is a transitional book. It was bringing about changes. The Spirit came in that way but I believe its clear in Romans(the following book or later on) that it was then something that came with salvation because before people didnt even know what the Holy Spirit was. Anyway, please respond with some evidence or examples of your point or else theres not much point to this thread. Does this make sense to anyone else? Let me know. Thanks. Your brother in Christ, matthew

It is absolutely true that certain details about baptism of the spirit and such are made up through the pentacostal movement. Look at the so called "slain in the spirit". I hope none of you practice this because this is one of the worst examples of false doctrine I have ever seen. I've done my research here and let me tell you that there is absolutly no evidence that anyone in the early church ever practiced this. It is something completly separate for the Bible. Now, I'm not saying that there is nothing good that can come from charasmatic/pentacostal groups. They just have a very bad reputation as it is. And please if you have any verses or evidence for the "slain in the spirit" thing please share it with me. Although, I have found through my research that this whole experience was created by a woman named Maria Woodworth-Etter sometime in the 1880s where she would go into some sort of trance and then fall backwards. This is where the first example comes from, not the Bible. This woman was a false prophet therefore God was not with her. So, she was probably doing Satan's work. We should defintely not follow examples set by Satan's workers. Anyway, sorry for changing the topic. lol. I just don't want anyone falling into something bad. No pun intended! Your brother in JC, matthew

Oh yes, I see your abundance of Scripture here.

Just because people believe what V believes, doesn't mean they are right. I do believe the churches are failing to teach this stuff. Too bad.

What he stated with regard to the Pentecostal movement is true. You don't need the bible for that, you just need to read up on the history of the modern charismatic movement.

[Floatingaxe]

Of course there is no other requirement for salvation. Why do you think anyone has said so?

The Holy Spirit comes upon a believer to anoint and empower the believer to fulfill his calling. It is often given by the laying on of hands, and often it occurs apart from that. All believers need tio avail themselves of such a baptism.

The problem: There is no doctrine taught by any of the Apostles in the Bible regarding "The Holy Spirit coming upon a believer to anoint and empower the believer to fulfill his calling." All believers are empowered by God according to their function in the Body (Again, Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14). The Bible does not teach that there is another "anointing" or s4eparate experience required for the carrying out of God's economy on the earth. These doctrines were conjured up by man, as I wrote previously, for the most part during the American Pentecostal movement.

That's what Pentecost was. We can all have our own pentecost.

[Floatingaxe]

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

I see. So then I am lacking in Biblical understanding and depth because I have not experienced such a baptism. I should presume from this argument that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to proper theological understanding. In other words I am ignorant because I haven't yet been baptized in the Spirit. How should I not then presume the opposite as well: That you, as well as all others who have experienced such a baptism, must be superior in your depth and understanding of Biblical theology.

Since your understanding of the Bible is so much deeper than mine, please point me to the verses which describe exactly what you are arguing here.

To treat a sister in Christ with the contempt that you and a couple others here do is revelatory.

[matthew4:4]

Hi again all,

I agree with what Floatingaxe has said on this subject and add the following:

Consider that this part of scripture (Acts 19) that speaks of the believers who had not been baptised into Jesus or received the Holy Ghost is a perfect scripture to hightlight the problem we have in the church general and even on this board. Consider that it is God Who is drawing our attention to these verses in order that no one here need be ignorant any longer of basic Gospel requirements, and the necessity of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul's concern for the believers that he encountered was apostolic. He made sure that they went no further in their ignorance and powerlessness by confirming the Gospel importance of their repentance and faith, instructing them to be baptized into Jesus Christ, and then laying hands on them for the Holy Spirit.

Paul was direct and to the point about the Gospel requirements which are still the same today. The order is also still the same.

There is no receiving of the Holy Spirit without conversion.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes through the laying on of hands by those with spiritual authority. It can also come directly from God without any laying on of hands provided the Gospel requirements are all in place. It can come at any time subsequent to conversion, accompanied by gifts and signs following including the gift of tongues but not always.

There is a difference between theological knowledge and Spiritual authority. If you don't know the difference, better find out.

Love, EphesiansGal

All believers who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have received the Spirit. There is no separate experience required. Once a believer has the Spirit, he has the Spirit! Acts 19 does not evidence that believers have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit.

You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit. You can paddle around in the spiritually shallow waters all your life and never have the baptism, but why would you want to? It is there for the asking and waiting on your faith to receive. There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit, as many have testified on here. Perhaps you would like to explain why you are so determined to call us all liars by implication?

First, please be careful about what you accuse me of. If I want to call someone a liar I will do so, and will not use any implicative language.

Second, "You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit" contradicts your later statement that, "There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit."

All who are saved are so because the Holy Spirit (Actually, the Triune God) has come to indwell them: John 14:15-24; 17:23; Rom. 8:9; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27. There is no essential need or requirement for salvation that the Spirit come once again to indwell a believer for a particular manifestation or spiritual experience. All believers can access the benefits of the Body of Christ mutually and for the benefit of its building. Read Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14 respectively.

There is no contradiction. You receive Him first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage.

That has yet to be evidenced by Scripture, however.

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

Look, this is why you are being criticized. Ovedya said something and supported it with verses and such but when you reply to things all you basically have to say is no, you're wrong and you don't know the Bible like I do. And the only thing we have to do as Christians to better understand God's word is study it with our minds. You are making statments with no basis or atleast I havent seen any. This is the second time I have asked you to please support what you are say with facts or evidence. I'm beginning to think that speaking about these things with you is a lost hope because from the responses I've gotten it seems that you believe you are right in everything! Atleast we can agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven! Thats the most important part. I'm glad that I'll be with you and everyone here(hopefully) in heaven. Its truly a beautiful thing. Much love. Your brother in Christ, matthew