Spiritual Language (Tongues)

[Floatingaxe]

Hi again all,

I agree with what Floatingaxe has said on this subject and add the following:

Consider that this part of scripture (Acts 19) that speaks of the believers who had not been baptised into Jesus or received the Holy Ghost is a perfect scripture to hightlight the problem we have in the church general and even on this board. Consider that it is God Who is drawing our attention to these verses in order that no one here need be ignorant any longer of basic Gospel requirements, and the necessity of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul's concern for the believers that he encountered was apostolic. He made sure that they went no further in their ignorance and powerlessness by confirming the Gospel importance of their repentance and faith, instructing them to be baptized into Jesus Christ, and then laying hands on them for the Holy Spirit.

Paul was direct and to the point about the Gospel requirements which are still the same today. The order is also still the same.

There is no receiving of the Holy Spirit without conversion.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes through the laying on of hands by those with spiritual authority. It can also come directly from God without any laying on of hands provided the Gospel requirements are all in place. It can come at any time subsequent to conversion, accompanied by gifts and signs following including the gift of tongues but not always.

There is a difference between theological knowledge and Spiritual authority. If you don't know the difference, better find out.

Love, EphesiansGal

All believers who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have received the Spirit. There is no separate experience required. Once a believer has the Spirit, he has the Spirit! Acts 19 does not evidence that believers have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit.

You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit. You can paddle around in the spiritually shallow waters all your life and never have the baptism, but why would you want to? It is there for the asking and waiting on your faith to receive. There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit, as many have testified on here. Perhaps you would like to explain why you are so determined to call us all liars by implication?

First, please be careful about what you accuse me of. If I want to call someone a liar I will do so, and will not use any implicative language.

Second, "You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit" contradicts your later statement that, "There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit."

All who are saved are so because the Holy Spirit (Actually, the Triune God) has come to indwell them: John 14:15-24; 17:23; Rom. 8:9; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27. There is no essential need or requirement for salvation that the Spirit come once again to indwell a believer for a particular manifestation or spiritual experience. All believers can access the benefits of the Body of Christ mutually and for the benefit of its building. Read Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14 respectively.

There is no contradiction. You receive Him first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage.

That has yet to be evidenced by Scripture, however.

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

Look, this is why you are being criticized. Ovedya said something and supported it with verses and such but when you reply to things all you basically have to say is no, you're wrong and you don't know the Bible like I do. And the only thing we have to do as Christians to better understand God's word is study it with our minds. You are making statments with no basis or atleast I havent seen any. This is the second time I have asked you to please support what you are say with facts or evidence. I'm beginning to think that speaking about these things with you is a lost hope because from the responses I've gotten it seems that you believe you are right in everything! Atleast we can agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven! Thats the most important part. I'm glad that I'll be with you and everyone here(hopefully) in heaven. Its truly a beautiful thing. Much love. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Haha! You ain't the boss o' me!

[Ovedya]

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

I see. So then I am lacking in Biblical understanding and depth because I have not experienced such a baptism. I should presume from this argument that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to proper theological understanding. In other words I am ignorant because I haven't yet been baptized in the Spirit. How should I not then presume the opposite as well: That you, as well as all others who have experienced such a baptism, must be superior in your depth and understanding of Biblical theology.

Since your understanding of the Bible is so much deeper than mine, please point me to the verses which describe exactly what you are arguing here.

To treat a sister in Christ with the contempt that you and a couple others here do is revelatory.

Contempt? Who was it that claimed that my lack of Biblical understanding stemmed from my not having been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Sister, I will not allow this discussion to go downhill. Again, I ask you to provide evidence of your argument - and your accusation. Otherwise we are at a stalemate.

[Fiosh]

Hi FA,

You said: "You receive Him(the Holy Spirit) first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage."

a) Please demonstrate this from Scripture

b) Briefly explain how you receive Him

and

How you are baptised in Him

Thanks,

F

[Floatingaxe]

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

I see. So then I am lacking in Biblical understanding and depth because I have not experienced such a baptism. I should presume from this argument that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to proper theological understanding. In other words I am ignorant because I haven't yet been baptized in the Spirit. How should I not then presume the opposite as well: That you, as well as all others who have experienced such a baptism, must be superior in your depth and understanding of Biblical theology.

Since your understanding of the Bible is so much deeper than mine, please point me to the verses which describe exactly what you are arguing here.

To treat a sister in Christ with the contempt that you and a couple others here do is revelatory.

Contempt? Who was it that claimed that my lack of Biblical understanding stemmed from my not having been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Sister, I will not allow this discussion to go downhill. Again, I ask you to provide evidence of your argument - and your accusation. Otherwise we are at a stalemate.

Evidence has been provided. Search the Word for yourself, asking the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal His truth to you. He will. There is a deeper life in Christ. I am not glorifying God by participating in this thread further. He is grieved.

The doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is to be taught to open, hungering and thirsting believing hearts...not to be argued among believers. It is ugly here now and I refuse to respond or rebut, as Jesus is not glorified.

[Ovedya]

Hi again all,

I agree with what Floatingaxe has said on this subject and add the following:

Consider that this part of scripture (Acts 19) that speaks of the believers who had not been baptised into Jesus or received the Holy Ghost is a perfect scripture to hightlight the problem we have in the church general and even on this board. Consider that it is God Who is drawing our attention to these verses in order that no one here need be ignorant any longer of basic Gospel requirements, and the necessity of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul's concern for the believers that he encountered was apostolic. He made sure that they went no further in their ignorance and powerlessness by confirming the Gospel importance of their repentance and faith, instructing them to be baptized into Jesus Christ, and then laying hands on them for the Holy Spirit.

Paul was direct and to the point about the Gospel requirements which are still the same today. The order is also still the same.

There is no receiving of the Holy Spirit without conversion.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes through the laying on of hands by those with spiritual authority. It can also come directly from God without any laying on of hands provided the Gospel requirements are all in place. It can come at any time subsequent to conversion, accompanied by gifts and signs following including the gift of tongues but not always.

There is a difference between theological knowledge and Spiritual authority. If you don't know the difference, better find out.

Love, EphesiansGal

All believers who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have received the Spirit. There is no separate experience required. Once a believer has the Spirit, he has the Spirit! Acts 19 does not evidence that believers have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit.

You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit. You can paddle around in the spiritually shallow waters all your life and never have the baptism, but why would you want to? It is there for the asking and waiting on your faith to receive. There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit, as many have testified on here. Perhaps you would like to explain why you are so determined to call us all liars by implication?

First, please be careful about what you accuse me of. If I want to call someone a liar I will do so, and will not use any implicative language.

Second, "You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit" contradicts your later statement that, "There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit."

All who are saved are so because the Holy Spirit (Actually, the Triune God) has come to indwell them: John 14:15-24; 17:23; Rom. 8:9; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27. There is no essential need or requirement for salvation that the Spirit come once again to indwell a believer for a particular manifestation or spiritual experience. All believers can access the benefits of the Body of Christ mutually and for the benefit of its building. Read Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14 respectively.

There is no contradiction. You receive Him first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage.

That has yet to be evidenced by Scripture, however.

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

Look, this is why you are being criticized. Ovedya said something and supported it with verses and such but when you reply to things all you basically have to say is no, you're wrong and you don't know the Bible like I do. And the only thing we have to do as Christians to better understand God's word is study it with our minds. You are making statments with no basis or atleast I havent seen any. This is the second time I have asked you to please support what you are say with facts or evidence. I'm beginning to think that speaking about these things with you is a lost hope because from the responses I've gotten it seems that you believe you are right in everything! Atleast we can agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven! Thats the most important part. I'm glad that I'll be with you and everyone here(hopefully) in heaven. Its truly a beautiful thing. Much love. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Haha! You ain't the boss o' me!

This is a childish response to a valid concern.

Quite frankly it gives credence to matthew 4:4's response.

[Ovedya]

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

I see. So then I am lacking in Biblical understanding and depth because I have not experienced such a baptism. I should presume from this argument that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a requirement to proper theological understanding. In other words I am ignorant because I haven't yet been baptized in the Spirit. How should I not then presume the opposite as well: That you, as well as all others who have experienced such a baptism, must be superior in your depth and understanding of Biblical theology.

Since your understanding of the Bible is so much deeper than mine, please point me to the verses which describe exactly what you are arguing here.

To treat a sister in Christ with the contempt that you and a couple others here do is revelatory.

Contempt? Who was it that claimed that my lack of Biblical understanding stemmed from my not having been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Sister, I will not allow this discussion to go downhill. Again, I ask you to provide evidence of your argument - and your accusation. Otherwise we are at a stalemate.

Evidence has been provided. Search the Word for yourself, asking the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal His truth to you. He will.

That evidence being....what exactly?

Your interpretation of Acts 19:1-7 has been refuted without successful rebuttal.

[Floatingaxe]

Hi again all,

I agree with what Floatingaxe has said on this subject and add the following:

Consider that this part of scripture (Acts 19) that speaks of the believers who had not been baptised into Jesus or received the Holy Ghost is a perfect scripture to hightlight the problem we have in the church general and even on this board. Consider that it is God Who is drawing our attention to these verses in order that no one here need be ignorant any longer of basic Gospel requirements, and the necessity of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Paul's concern for the believers that he encountered was apostolic. He made sure that they went no further in their ignorance and powerlessness by confirming the Gospel importance of their repentance and faith, instructing them to be baptized into Jesus Christ, and then laying hands on them for the Holy Spirit.

Paul was direct and to the point about the Gospel requirements which are still the same today. The order is also still the same.

There is no receiving of the Holy Spirit without conversion.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes through the laying on of hands by those with spiritual authority. It can also come directly from God without any laying on of hands provided the Gospel requirements are all in place. It can come at any time subsequent to conversion, accompanied by gifts and signs following including the gift of tongues but not always.

There is a difference between theological knowledge and Spiritual authority. If you don't know the difference, better find out.

Love, EphesiansGal

All believers who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have received the Spirit. There is no separate experience required. Once a believer has the Spirit, he has the Spirit! Acts 19 does not evidence that believers have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit.

You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit. You can paddle around in the spiritually shallow waters all your life and never have the baptism, but why would you want to? It is there for the asking and waiting on your faith to receive. There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit, as many have testified on here. Perhaps you would like to explain why you are so determined to call us all liars by implication?

First, please be careful about what you accuse me of. If I want to call someone a liar I will do so, and will not use any implicative language.

Second, "You can get saved and then you are given the Holy Spirit" contradicts your later statement that, "There is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptised in the Holy Spirit."

All who are saved are so because the Holy Spirit (Actually, the Triune God) has come to indwell them: John 14:15-24; 17:23; Rom. 8:9; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col.1:27. There is no essential need or requirement for salvation that the Spirit come once again to indwell a believer for a particular manifestation or spiritual experience. All believers can access the benefits of the Body of Christ mutually and for the benefit of its building. Read Ephesians 4:16 and 1 Cor. 14 respectively.

There is no contradiction. You receive Him first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage.

That has yet to be evidenced by Scripture, however.

Most of the doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was formulated by the modern Pentecostal movement, in fact, outside the realm of solid Biblical teaching.

That is a lie. Paul preached it, and lived it. Your lack of Biblical understanding comes from the need for just the baptism we are discussing.

Look, this is why you are being criticized. Ovedya said something and supported it with verses and such but when you reply to things all you basically have to say is no, you're wrong and you don't know the Bible like I do. And the only thing we have to do as Christians to better understand God's word is study it with our minds. You are making statments with no basis or atleast I havent seen any. This is the second time I have asked you to please support what you are say with facts or evidence. I'm beginning to think that speaking about these things with you is a lost hope because from the responses I've gotten it seems that you believe you are right in everything! Atleast we can agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven! Thats the most important part. I'm glad that I'll be with you and everyone here(hopefully) in heaven. Its truly a beautiful thing. Much love. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Haha! You ain't the boss o' me!

This is a childish response to a valid concern.

Quite frankly it gives credence to matthew 4:4's response.

Come on. It was to cut the tension.

[Ovedya]

Come on. It was to cut the tension.

I see. I apologize. I didn't see that you were being funny.

[Fiosh]

RE: FA said: "You receive Him(the Holy Spirit) first and then you are baptised in Him at some later stage."

Acts 19: 1-7 actually argues against your statement, FA. It demonstrates that we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism.

[Fiosh]

In any case, there is a way to perceive those who are truly filled with the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5: 22-26

In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,

gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.

Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.

and again

I Corinthians 13: 1-6

If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, love is not pompous, it is not inflated,

it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.

Peace,

Fiosh