Embryonic Stem-Cell Research

[Tubal-Cain]

Why should it matter how often it occurs? The fact is, it does occur. I dealt with students that were essentially warm bodies in a wheelchair. They had to be fed, have their diapers changed, etc. If they fell out of the wheelchair, they would never show any signs of pain. Likewise, they never showed emotion.

You're saying they aren't human or worthy of life? Again, how does this make you any better than a Nazi?

The people you are describing seem to be quite impaired mentally but nothing in your description indicates that they do not have desires.

That's a pathetic argument. Of course we can use plants - we can use any animals for our purposes so long as it is not abusive. This is why I'm against cruelty to animals, but also against excessive pollution.

Remember, you said that animals have some rights because they are creatures of God. If you are consistent then you must also hold that anything else that is created by God, including inanimate objects, deserves at least some moral rights. I'm trying to show the absurdity of using that line of thinking regarding morality.

[apothanein kerdos]

The people you are describing seem to be quite impaired mentally but nothing in your description indicates that they do not have desires.

There is no way to know. However, it is highly improbably that they do...generally there is never any registering of cognitive thought occurring within. Your ideology says it's okay to kill them. How are you not following Nazi ideology?

Remember, you said that animals have some rights because they are creatures of God. If you are consistent then you must also hold that anything else that is created by God, including inanimate objects, deserves at least some moral rights. I'm trying to show the absurdity of using that line of thinking regarding morality.

Oh, so now I have to be stuck to a limited definition and can't elaborate?

Regardless, yes, all things on this earth that have been created by God deserve some moral rights. Needless deforestation is immoral according to the Bible. I also said they were never to be held to the same level as humans in morality - thus we can kill them for food, etc...we just cannot be cruel, pollute, etc. What's your point?

[Tubal-Cain]

There is no way to know. However, it is highly improbably that they do...generally there is never any registering of cognitive thought occurring within. Your ideology says it's okay to kill them. How are you not following Nazi ideology?

I can't comment since you have not described the disease or illness you are alluding to. All I can say is that I know the Nazis killed those who I think were deserving of moral consideration.

Regardless, yes, all things on this earth that have been created by God deserve some moral rights. Needless deforestation is immoral according to the Bible. I also said they were never to be held to the same level as humans in morality - thus we can kill them for food, etc...we just cannot be cruel, pollute, etc. What's your point?

So you think, for example, that a rock is deserving of moral rights because it was created? If so, you're consistent but I don't think many will agree with your line of thinking. If not, then elaboration is needed.

[apothanein kerdos]

I can't comment since you have not described the disease or illness you are alluding to.

And you've yet to offer a reasonable defense for your beliefs.

So the only belief difference between you and a Nazi is they took a bit further than you would? Wow...

So you think, for example, that a rock is deserving of moral rights because it was created? If so, you're consistent but I don't think many will agree with your line of thinking. If not, then elaboration is needed.

To a certain extent, yes. If there were a way to destroy rocks excessively, to where they were endangered, then yes, we would need to take it into moral consideration. The problem, of course, is this is impossible.

[Tubal-Cain]

And you've yet to offer a reasonable defense for your beliefs.

I'm willing to defend them if you come up with a specific disease or illness.

So the only belief difference between you and a Nazi is they took a bit further than you would? Wow...

There are numerous differences between the Nazis and I. Your insinuations are unproductive. Come up with specific questions and I can discuss them.

[apothanein kerdos]

And you've yet to offer a reasonable defense for your beliefs.

I'm willing to defend them if you come up with a specific disease or illness.

So the only belief difference between you and a Nazi is they took a bit further than you would? Wow...

There are numerous differences between the Nazis and I. Your insinuations are unproductive. Come up with specific questions and I can discuss them.

Bottom line after this - you ethically and philosophically can't support your position.

[Kansasdad]

What is the cut off date?

That is a question for scientists to answer: when does a fetus gain desires?

Is it still undeserving of moral consideration at 9 months if it is still in the womb?

I'm sure the brain and central nervous system are developed before birth.

What about 5 months?

I've heard numbers around 20-25 weeks so that is probably in the ball park.

Ballpark? is "close enough" ok when you might be killing a human being. How can we know what day specifically for each non born human. If they have desire and can feel pain one day before 20 weeks and you kill them are you less responsible. Are they any less dead. What magically changed in one day. Who gets to decide when you are human and when you are not?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Tubal-Cain]

Ballpark? is "close enough" ok when you might be killing a human being. How can we know what day specifically for each non born human. If they have desire and can feel pain one day before 20 weeks and you kill them are you less responsible. Are they any less dead. What magically changed in one day. Who gets to decide when you are human and when you are not?

You can error on the side of caution. When it comes to embryos there is really no doubt that they cannot feel pain.

[Kansasdad]

Ballpark? is "close enough" ok when you might be killing a human being. How can we know what day specifically for each non born human. If they have desire and can feel pain one day before 20 weeks and you kill them are you less responsible. Are they any less dead. What magically changed in one day. Who gets to decide when you are human and when you are not?

You can error on the side of caution. When it comes to embryos there is really no doubt that they cannot feel pain.

Tell me how do we error on the side of caution, one day, one week, one month? And who gets to decide that feeling pain is a prerequisite for being human?

[CaritateDei]

Dope me up on Codine and stab me in the face. I won't feel a thing.

It still does not give you the right to stab me.