Split - Faith vs Works

[Kansasdad]

may not be satanic but it is false teaching. That makes it evil.

If i read the article right it is saying that Salvation is not enough. if that is what it is saying then by that assumption, it says Christ was not good enough to save us. his blood was not good enough to cover our sins. it is saying his death was meaningless.

It is false teaching and Paul curses at this false preaching. (Galatians 1)

as i said, so many people can't even define what salvation, faith, works and im glad you added grace.

if they can define it without using a search engine they will see how independant they can stand.

Funny how the article said "Without loving God and neighbour, there is no salvation for you. It's simple. No love? No salvation. Count on it."

He is preaching something false.

Then you have Kansasdad posting this article as if he is doing us a favor.

Then he is offended because I call it satanic. I did that on purpose. I know it is false and Satanic is a bit harsh but I wanted to see

the affect of me calling it such a name.

I threw the bait and he bit.

that article is garbage.

Before anyone starts dipping into James 2:x they have to read from the beginning in chapter 1.

Here is a nice scripture that sets a tone:

James 1:25 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer,

but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

the man shall be blessed. plain and simple.

you do not "work" then you will not be blessed.

your faith is dead but that does not mean you have no salvation. how these beievers of works came to this conclusion is unknown.

Probably lack of ability to define salvation.

"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

the key here is "being alone." it is still faith. it may not be shining light on the world and God may not be giving

you blessing but you still have your ticket to heaven.

it is a disappoinment that you are not DEMONSTRATING it by doing things but YOU WILL NOT READ that your salvation

was taken away or rejected. People are adding making it into a new gospel and this is what Paul is cursing at in galatians 1.

"26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Faith is your ticket to heaven and if you never demonstrated it then it will be a sad wrinkled ticket that

looks like it has been through a washing machine. it is alone. nevertheless it is still your ticket according to Paul and

respecting James' epistle.

People don't want to hear what Im saying. "workers of salvation" have their minds made up. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

You are right we don't want to hear your, "may not be satanic but it is false teaching. That makes it evil. ideas

You just keep holding on to your faith with no works and see what you will be judged on. The works you do are the measurment of your faith. You are correct that you must have faith, but claiming it, or believing you have it, does not make it so. If you think you have faith but your actions show something else then you only have lip service.

And that is what the article says. So yes, if you don't have love then you don't have faith. I don't think you have a very good idea of what faith really is.

[Smalcald]

That is the key Kansas, what is faith, saving faith what does it really mean?

This is what we are really kind of arguing about, not whether faith itself is needed; we all agree that it is. There are some theological arguments that I frankly find rather confusing about what we really mean by mixing works or adding works to faith, but it seems to me that we all basically believe that works overflow from faith and as you say are a measure of the faith that we have. In fact our works help give us peace and comfort as they assure our hearts of our faith. Faith cannot be a function of intellectual capacity for example.

On the other hand, I do think we really hurt ourselves by living in a constant state of fear about measuring works, have I done enough how much will save me, and on and on, because we know it never is enough to save us really, then works become an obligation a sort of check mark that once works xyz are done I can relax, and we can look at other people and say ha they don't make the grade because they didn't do works xy and z, when really if we have faith we won't look at works in that way.

It is a hard topic I think.

[exrockstar]

You are right we don't want to hear your, "may not be satanic but it is false teaching. That makes it evil. ideas

You just keep holding on to your faith with no works and see what you will be judged on. The works you do are the measurment of your faith. You are correct that you must have faith, but claiming it, or believing you have it, does not make it so. If you think you have faith but your actions show something else then you only have lip service.

And that is what the article says. So yes, if you don't have love then you don't have faith. I don't think you have a very good idea of what faith really is.

Please tell me you are new to the bible because you cant seem to grasp what scripture says.

YOU WILL BE JUDGED ON WORKS.

But do you understand the process?

I honestly think you do not. Let me tell you the process.

I have 1 simple question that I want to ask you and if you'd be so kindly to answer then we can make this conversation productive.

1. If an atheist dies will he immediately go to hell or will he stand to be judged?

very simple question for you ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[Floatingaxe]

Everyone knows an atheist stands before the White Throne to be judged, and will bow before Christ before being cast into outer darkness.

[exrockstar]

Everyone knows an atheist stands before the White Throne to be judged, and will bow before Christ before being cast into outer darkness.

correct!

and what do they call the judgement of all believers? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

by the way this was meant for Kansas. However, he may learn something.

Edited April 23, 2007 by exrockstar

[Floatingaxe]

Everyone knows an atheist stands before the White Throne to be judged, and will bow before Christ before being cast into outer darkness.

and what do they call the judgement of all believers? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

The Bema Seat.

(Rewards Night! )

[exrockstar]

Everyone knows an atheist stands before the White Throne to be judged, and will bow before Christ before being cast into outer darkness.

and what do they call the judgement of all believers? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

The Bema Seat.

(Rewards Night! )

at least we agree on something!

I can keep going to clear things up but I get a feeling no one is reading but us two.

but it's really KD that needs the help. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[Kansasdad]

Everyone knows an atheist stands before the White Throne to be judged, and will bow before Christ before being cast into outer darkness.

and what do they call the judgement of all believers? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

The Bema Seat.

(Rewards Night! )

at least we agree on something!

I can keep going to clear things up but I get a feeling no one is reading but us two.

but it's really KD that needs the help. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Don't worry about Ole, K.D God has me covered! I found it quite interesting how you jump to a conclusion that dead faith will still get you into heaven. Statements like that make we wonder just how new to the bible you are? The article posted above has over 2000 years of study and understanding behind it, but I am sure your few decades is more than adequate. By the way, we will all be judged.

[EricH]

The key question that should be asked is not if there if both faith and works play a part in salvation. They do. They question is what is the nature of the relationship.

In other words we would all agree that faith is a cause of salvation. The question is are works a cause of salvation, or an expected result of salvation.

[exrockstar]

Don't worry about Ole, K.D God has me covered! I found it quite interesting how you jump to a conclusion that dead faith will still get you into heaven. Statements like that make we wonder just how new to the bible you are? The article posted above has over 2000 years of study and understanding behind it, but I am sure your few decades is more than adequate. By the way, we will all be judged.

dead faith does not equal to zero.

Besides I am not the only one that stands by this. I believe in grace and not "works for salvation."

FloatingAxe, is it fair to say that Bema is for believers and white throne is for non-believers? ... 3xR0c|<stAr