Why is the 'Church of Christ' sometimes called a cult?

[Kansasdad]

In Mark we are called to believe and then to immediately put that belief into action.

Old Testament Law right there.

however, that "action" is really demonstration (which is fine) but it does not tie into salvation.

It is two sides of the same coin so it deffinately ties into salvation.

God Bless,

K.D.

this is no different then OT believers going to the temple and sacrificing, feasts, tabernacle etc etc etc.

they all did these things with the concept of "salvation" through action.

"Actions" never saves.

if thats the case then we have many great humanitarian atheists that will enter heaven and John 3:16 is a lie.

I never said action alone saves, that is your spin on it. And this is very different. In the New Testament God tells you to do it. That should be the end of the conversation. Rebellion is not belief.

God Bless,

K.D.

[EricH]

In Mark we are called to believe and then to immediately put that belief into action.

Old Testament Law right there.

however, that "action" is really demonstration (which is fine) but it does not tie into salvation.

It is two sides of the same coin so it deffinately ties into salvation.

God Bless,

K.D.

this is no different then OT believers going to the temple and sacrificing, feasts, tabernacle etc etc etc.

they all did these things with the concept of "salvation" through action.

"Actions" never saves.

if thats the case then we have many great humanitarian atheists that will enter heaven and John 3:16 is a lie.

I never said action alone saves, that is your spin on it. And this is very different. In the New Testament God tells you to do it. That should be the end of the conversation. Rebellion is not belief.

God Bless,

K.D.

No argument there. God commands baptism for believers and we should do it. But it is also important that we have a correct understanding of its function in relation to salvation. My understanding of this discussion is that we are talking about its role in salvation, not whether or not believers should do it

[Kansasdad]

In Mark we are called to believe and then to immediately put that belief into action.

Old Testament Law right there.

however, that "action" is really demonstration (which is fine) but it does not tie into salvation.

It is two sides of the same coin so it deffinately ties into salvation.

God Bless,

K.D.

this is no different then OT believers going to the temple and sacrificing, feasts, tabernacle etc etc etc.

they all did these things with the concept of "salvation" through action.

"Actions" never saves.

if thats the case then we have many great humanitarian atheists that will enter heaven and John 3:16 is a lie.

I never said action alone saves, that is your spin on it. And this is very different. In the New Testament God tells you to do it. That should be the end of the conversation. Rebellion is not belief.

God Bless,

K.D.

No argument there. God commands baptism for believers and we should do it. But it is also important that we have a correct understanding of its function in relation to salvation. My understanding of this discussion is that we are talking about its role in salvation, not whether or not believers should do it

Actually I thought it was about the CoC

Here is a question to ponder. If it has nothing to do with our salvation then why does God tells us to do it so many times? It has no benefit to other human beings, It does nothing to us physically. Its only purpose is some fulfillment of Gods command on a spiritual level. Its only purpose is an avenue of Gods Grace. Not an avenue created by man, but an avenue dictated by God. God can administer his Grace however he chooses, who am I to argue with his methods.

God Bless,

K.D.

[EricH]

In Mark we are called to believe and then to immediately put that belief into action.

Old Testament Law right there.

however, that "action" is really demonstration (which is fine) but it does not tie into salvation.

It is two sides of the same coin so it deffinately ties into salvation.

God Bless,

K.D.

this is no different then OT believers going to the temple and sacrificing, feasts, tabernacle etc etc etc.

they all did these things with the concept of "salvation" through action.

"Actions" never saves.

if thats the case then we have many great humanitarian atheists that will enter heaven and John 3:16 is a lie.

I never said action alone saves, that is your spin on it. And this is very different. In the New Testament God tells you to do it. That should be the end of the conversation. Rebellion is not belief.

God Bless,

K.D.

No argument there. God commands baptism for believers and we should do it. But it is also important that we have a correct understanding of its function in relation to salvation. My understanding of this discussion is that we are talking about its role in salvation, not whether or not believers should do it

Actually I thought it was about the CoC

Here is a question to ponder. If it has nothing to do with our salvation then why does God tells us to do it so many times? It has no benefit to other human beings, It does nothing to us physically. Its only purpose is some fulfillment of Gods command on a spiritual level. Its only purpose is an avenue of Gods Grace. Not an avenue created by man, but an avenue dictated by God. God can administer his Grace however he chooses, who am I to argue with his methods.

God Bless,

K.D.

God tells us to love each other many times. He tells us do many things many times. The number of times a thing is mentioned by God, does not equate to its being required for salvation. Baptism has a tremendous benefit to other people. When we (our church) baptize, we invite all the unsaved friends and family of those being baptized. When they hear the testominies of the people being baptized, they are drawn into the kingdom (We have had the unsaved commit to Christ because of witnessing the testimonies given at baptisms). Baptism is a public testimony. It gives fellow believers a chance to rejoice over the testimony of the one baptized. Our congregation actually cheers after every baptism (we do 100's a year of new converts). It is also the believer's first step of obedience as a believer.

The original question was why the COC is considered a cult. It is their view of baptism that has caused many to so consider them.

Still interested in an interaction with Mark 16:16

[Kansasdad]

[quote name='Kansasdad' post='995252' date='Oct 4 2007, 02:30 PM'

No argument there. God commands baptism for believers and we should do it. But it is also important that we have a correct understanding of its function in relation to salvation. My understanding of this discussion is that we are talking about its role in salvation, not whether or not believers should do it

Actually I thought it was about the CoC

Here is a question to ponder. If it has nothing to do with our salvation then why does God tells us to do it so many times? It has no benefit to other human beings, It does nothing to us physically. Its only purpose is some fulfillment of Gods command on a spiritual level. Its only purpose is an avenue of Gods Grace. Not an avenue created by man, but an avenue dictated by God. God can administer his Grace however he chooses, who am I to argue with his methods.

God Bless,

K.D.

God tells us to love each other many times. He tells us do many things many times. The number of times a thing is mentioned by God, does not equate to its being required for salvation. Baptism has a tremendous benefit to other people. When we (our church) baptize, we invite all the unsaved friends and family of those being baptized. When they hear the testominies of the people being baptized, they are drawn into the kingdom (We have had the unsaved commit to Christ because of witnessing the testimonies given at baptisms). Baptism is a public testimony. It gives fellow believers a chance to rejoice over the testimony of the one baptized. Our congregation actually cheers after every baptism (we do 100's a year of new converts). It is also the believer's first step of obedience as a believer.

The original question was why the COC is considered a cult. It is their view of baptism that has caused many to so consider them.

Still interested in an interaction with Mark 16:16

Post 196 spoke to your question directly,

Here it is again,

The problem is that your logic is only taking into consideration this one verse. The fact is that baptism, salvation, and the forgiveness of sins are addresses in many places in scripture. You need to look at all scripture has to say on the issue. Further, your logic does not preclude the possibility that both are necessary. It just allows for different options of interpretation. both of which could be correct if all we had to go by was that one verse. Fortunately, the Bible address this in several places. When you look at all that scripture has to say on the issue you see a pattern of correspondence. Baptism is definitely part of the plan designed by God. I would further contend that when there are competing possibilities we should look to the early church fathers who were taught by the Apostles and see what they taught. If one of the possibilities lines up with what they taught and the other does not, I would say you have a definitive answer.

God Bless,

K.D.

Also, all of which you described above could be accomplished with a trumpet blast and a shouting declaration from the new convert. But God didn't say believe and shout it to the masses, and be saved. He does repeatedly say to believe, be baptised, and repent. I would also say that part of believing and repenting is to love your neighbor. So if you do not love you will not be saved. Because if you do not love you do not believe. so yes love is a requirement of salvation, because it is a requirement of belief.

God Bless,

K.D.

[EricH]

Here it is again,

You need to look at all scripture has to say on the issue. Further, your logic does not preclude the possibility that both are necessary. It just allows for different options of interpretation.

But is does. Take a look at the passage again. Most people who quote it only quote the first part:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

They leave out the clarifying statement:

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It is the follow up statment that clarifies the meaning of the first. The logic of the passage itself precludes that both are necessary. That is what creates the logical problem in the first place.

So, you really have not addressed the logical problem. If the second phrase was not there, you would indeed be correct. Both could be required, or either could be required. In fact we could draw no conclusions form this passage because it would be ambiguous. But there is a clarifying statement by the author. The reason the author placed it there was to avoid the logical problem that people who use this verse to justify baptismal regeneration commit. In the passage's current form, the verse would need to say this for what you are proposing to be true. mark 16:16 because of its structure is actually more of a proof that baptism is not required:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned.

But it doees not say that. It says this:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mark 16:16 HCSB

Now, in terms of other passages we would need to address them one at a time to make sure the structure, context, and greek support what you are maintaining.

Just out of curiosity. Do you know how many meanings the word Baptism has in the NT?

[Massorite]

The COC believe that because satan was a music minister who became full of pride, tried to take his bosses job, and fell from the grace of God. They also believe that it is a sin to us musical instruments in the worship of God.

The fact of the matter is that God created a music minister to minister to Him and since satan has refused to do his God given job, it has fallen to us to do what satan wouldn't. Which means it has fallen to us to do all that satan was supposed to do when we worship God Almighty our Father and Creator.

Since the COC refuses to use musical instruments in the worship of God for the reason they have chosen to use. They are rejecting that which pleases their Father and Creator for a reason that is in no way biblically re-enforced. Which among other reasons separates them from the rest of Christendom and establishes them as a cult. Why would anybody want to reject that which God loves?

Not trying to argue here Massorite, promise..........but in my 50 odd years I have NEVER, EVER heard what you've just stated above. No where in the Bible does it say satan was the music minister, and if the supposed CoC you were going to told you that, then they are a cult. But, they are NOT the CoC I grew up in.

No where does it say in the bible that you have to be baptized in order to be saved either, thats like saying the cross wasn't enough.

In Ezekiel 28:13 the bible says among other things "the workmanship of your tabrets (drums/timbrel) and of your pipes (trumpet) was prepared IN THEE in the day you were created" Here the word "workmanship" speaks of an occupation or ministry and we know that a ministry is an occupation. You are right in that the bible doesn't use the word "music minister" but we know from scripture that satan was created with the ability to make music and it was his occupation/ministry to make music which means he was created to make music for no one else except God. Since satan was created log before we were. So scarletprayers I would call that a music minister to God.

One thing I always do when it comes to the Bible is in depth research on every single word in a verse. It is quit surprising what some English words actually mean in the Hebrew or the Greek.

Yes the COC I went to did try to teach me that but they didn't convince me

Where ANYWEHRE in the above do you see one word about baptism?????

[Kansasdad]

Here it is again,

You need to look at all scripture has to say on the issue. Further, your logic does not preclude the possibility that both are necessary. It just allows for different options of interpretation.

But is does. Take a look at the passage again. Most people who quote it only quote the first part:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

They leave out the clarifying statement:

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It is the follow up statment that clarifies the meaning of the first. The logic of the passage itself precludes that both are necessary. That is what creates the logical problem in the first place.

So, you really have not addressed the logical problem. If the second phrase was not there, you would indeed be correct. Both could be required, or either could be required. In fact we could draw no conclusions form this passage because it would be ambiguous. But there is a clarifying statement by the author. The reason the author placed it there was to avoid the logical problem that people who use this verse to justify baptismal regeneration commit. In the passage's current form, the verse would need to say this for what you are proposing to be true. mark 16:16 because of its structure is actually more of a proof that baptism is not required:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned.

But it doees not say that. It says this:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mark 16:16 HCSB

Now, in terms of other passages we would need to address them one at a time to make sure the structure, context, and greek support what you are maintaining.

Just out of curiosity. Do you know how many meanings the word Baptism has in the NT?

You have missed the point. Baptism is a part of believing. You are trying to separate the two and I am saying they can not be seperated. Just like love can not be seperated from belief either.

There are also examples of baptism by blood and baptism by desire. All of which are part of belief, or faith, and are the avenues in which God gives us his Grace.

[exrockstar]

No argument there. God commands baptism for believers and we should do it. But it is also important that we have a correct understanding of its function in relation to salvation. My understanding of this discussion is that we are talking about its role in salvation, not whether or not believers should do it

Eric, i want you to let me know what is the advantage and disadvatage of someone that has been water baptized.

we both agree that it is not required for salvation.

Apparently your pastor and church are pro-baptism....so what reward will you get?

do you guys feel more devoted than I?

scripture to this will be more than appreciated.

and (if you can) do you believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[exrockstar]

Cobalt

Yes, the Bible certainly does address salvation in many, many places, and only a small minority of those passages even mention baptism with belief and salvation. So the doctrine of having to be baptized to be saved is based on a handful of mis-interpreted verses.

How many verses connecting belief, repentance and baptism with salvation does it take to constitute