"...except ye repent..."

[graymousey]

Vickilynn wrote:

"Shalom Gray,

"There is nothing wrong with the word denomination, it's just that too many Christians are more denominational that Christian. IOW, the focus is on the denomination, the church, instead of the Word and G-d.."

Shalom Vickilynn,

Although this is not the subject of this thread, but the reason that there are denominations is doctrinal differences.

When I search for a 'good' church, I have to choose one that agrees with God's Word, and follows nothing else but God's Word. Not every denomination does that. I wouldn't want to belong to a denomination where not God's Word is only authoritative.

Mutzrein wrote:

"I have to ask the question. Is repentance a human decision?"

Yes, it is a human decision. Absolutely. If it were not, then we would be only puppets.

To be born of God needs our cooperation; and repentance is the only thing that can trigger this new birth. Without repentance there is no new birth.

"We don

[graymousey]

graymousey

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I just realized that repentance is not preached in my church, and it upsets me.

God designed a plan, the PLAN OF SALVATION, for those penitent sinners who want to break away from Satan and make peace with God. Without repentance there is no regeneration, no new birth.

graymousey

[Phil.2:12]

It is not that I hold it dear or not, but because the Gospel Message if presented without calling for repentance is a false gospel, producing fake converts.

As I said earlier, I just realized that repentance is being left out from the salvation message in my church. The part that is presented is good, but what is not said takes away the power of the Gospel. Right now I am praying about what to do, and how to do it.

That's not all that takes away the power of the Gospel. Read Hebrews Chapters 5 and 6 to see what Paul thought about those who refuse to mature in the Lord as they live "their" Christian lives. What Paul wrote to the church at Philippi in Chapter 2 still applies today.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do all of His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13, KJV, emphasis added).

.

When was the last time you heard this theme of working out your own salvation preached in your church? Today's church is powerless precisely because today's church does not preach the doctrines contained in the Word of God. They instead preach the "feel-good" doctrines of their headquarters, whether denominational in nature ot non-denominational. Just because you attend a "non-denominational" church is no guarantee that the local shepherd of that flock doesn't get his "preaching points" from somewhere outside of the realm of the Word of God and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. And yes, such a scenario happens in the best of the "non-denominational" churches.

[Guest LAW]

I think pointing fingers at organized, historically-based religion (i.e., "denominations") is just finding a whipping boy for a problem inherent in all groups of worshipers. All Christian churches were once young. Just because they have been around awhile doesn't mean they've necessarily become fat and self-satisfied. If the basis for the church is Biblical, i think you then look at the individual groups of believers. I've been in many denominations. i can love a church in one area and go to another state, go to that same denomination, and find a group of believers that are dead as a doornail.

In each church i've been in (and yes, they've included non-denominational), you find some members who attend for attendance's sake. you'll find some who are Bible-thumpers but full of judgment and animosity towards anyone who is different than they are. you'll find sneaks, thieves, addict (to either substances or unrighteousness). And sometimes that includes clergy/leaders/elders. Welcome to the Christian body!

Paul calls us to work out OUR own salvation, meaning we're responsible to look inward at our own lives. however, i am also to remember that God is in control and His HS will work on others as needs be. i may think they're just giving lip service to their beliefs. but i don't know their hearts. If they are in my body of believers, i'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, I have not had the experience some have had. Some may die in the grip of prejudice, addictions, animosity towards others and, try as they might, have been unable to recognize the poison these were to a full Spirit-filled life or the harm they were inflicting on others. But i am not going to say that they did not repent--God knows that. I'm not going to say that Jesus' blood was unable to save them from their sins--God knows that.

I do think we have a BIG responsibility as believers to make sure that what comes out of the pulpit is Biblical. oftentimes, if you talk it out, you'll find your differences are in the ways the ideas are expressed. But the Bible tells us to go to our brother if we have a difference with him and see if he will hear us. Keeping lines of communication open is much healthier for the Body of Christ than letting it fester within us.

It is my duty as a Christian to hear my brother, to respect him, to love him. That said, i totally agree that repentence is part of the formula for salvation. But because of my sinful nature, i am constantly repenting. and the more i repent, the more the Spirit brings to my mind and eyes other things that need working on. He is kind not to overwhelm me with all my faults at once.

[graymousey]

"Praying that your prayers will be answered soon."

Thank you Horizoneast.

Isaiah 43:4 wrote:

"I don't know if you meant this the way I took it, but it sounds like you're saying we need to break with sin before we can accept Christ. I.e. clean up your act and then come to God."

We have to repent every sin we are aware of at conversion. Repentance 'triggers' the new birth. Without repentance the new birth cannot come about. We also have to turn away from those sins, we have to repudiate them, we have to hate them.

But then, after the new birth, when the Holy Spirit takes residence in one's heart, He will point to sins in our lives that we were not aware of. The Holy Spirit is like a reflector light in our hearts, and the child of God see sin as He sees it. As our mind is getting renewed day by day, we will identify more and more sins in our lives, and as soon as we do, we have to side with our new nature.

The point is, that as soon as I am reminded of a sin, I have to repent it, and clean it up.

This is a life long process as the Lord cleanses us, and makes us ready to heaven.

[graymousey]

Isaiah43:4 wrote:

" have felt God's love and peace many, many times after a night out drinking. I didn't repent, and then receive His blessing. I felt His love, and then I repented. If repentance is a prerequiset (sp?) of blessings and salvation, the work would be ours, not God's. And we KNOW we cannot do anything to earn salvation. When I repented, it was real. I could not have made it more real if I tried. Did it last? Not usually. But I repented. I "changed my mind" on how I was going to live my life.

If you want to go to a church that portrays God with a whip in one hand and a club in the other, go to an independant fundamental baptist church. You'll find that god there almost every time.

My God isn't so big on the "rules" of repentance. He's shown me that over and over again. My God is big on love. He understands, when humans don't, and they point fingers. He understands that the sins I commit are no greater simply because others can see them, than other Chrisian's sins that are hidden from view."

You are forgetting that God is holy, and sin hater. God loved us IN THAT, that He sent Christ to save us. Those who are not saved by Christ are under God's condemnation.

Christ saves us from sin. If somebody is not saved from wanting to live in sin, he is not saved at all.

The peace you felt after a night out drinking was not from God.

Repentance is not a "work." Sin separates us from God, and when we repent, that separating 'sin-wall' gets out of the way, and so, we can have fellowship with God. We left God by our free will, and so, we must return to God (on His terms) also by our free will.

There is only one God, so, when you speak about "your god" I am not sure what you mean. God loves His own, those who repented their sins and turned to God with the desire to make peace with God.

God gave us His Law in order to reveal sin in us. God tells us that the wages of sin is death. This is a serious business. If we repent, God forgives us for Christ's sake, because He is merciful and kind. But God has zero tolerance toward sin. The Bible is very clear about that. We cannot live knowingly in sin and yet claim that we have God's peace in us.

If your "god is not so big on the rules of repentance" then please check your Bible again. God and sin cannot coexist. Christ died so that He would be able to dress every repentant sinner into His own righteousness.

[graymousey]

Isaiah 43:4 wrote:

"What if, when I come to Christ, there's one sin I'm aware of and don't repent of it? Am I then not saved?

I am afraid that the Bible is clear about that.

Psalm 66:18

"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me."

Proverbs 15:29

"The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous."

Proverbs 28:9

"He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination."

John 9:31

"Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."

If we "leave one out" as you put it, then God is waiting. Conversion is a 180 degree turn around. What we see as sin we must turn away from before Christ would take us in. Every sin is of Satan.

We cannot have it both ways. One is either with God or with Satan.

"If someone is truly convicted of the Holy Spirit of the need for salvation, when you sit down to pray with that person, do you really tell them they need to repent of all known sins .."

You see, when one is told that God gives eternal life for free, and you have to do absolutely nothing, that is a very tempting offer. Who would be so stupid to refuse it? "Just say this prayer" they say, "and now you have eternal security." But that is pure deception. When you say that one is "truly convicted of the Holy Spirit of the need of salvation" then maybe you are talking about such scenario. But really, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and of our lack of righteousness, and that Judgement Day is coming, and when one is convicted of all that, then he wants to go to Christ on His terms; of which the first is repentance.

If Christ cannot save us from wanting to live in sin, then He cannot save us at all.

For Nicodemus the Lord said that he must be born again. The new birth cannot come about without turning away from Satan, and turning to God. That is repentance. So, you see, repentance was part of it what the Lord Jesus said to Nicodemus.

"If it is so essential, why would Jesus leave it out?"

He did not. But we have to examine the Word of God as a whole, and we cannot separate a verse, or a chapter, and build a doctrine around it. We must look at the Message as a whole.

"I don't think man crushing others with repentance, essential or not, is the way to lead someone to Christ"

Well, don't forget that sin separated us from God in the first place. Sin is in the way. "Your iniquities separate you from your God...." "your sins hid God's face from you..." (paraphrased).

So, when one wants to make peace with God and wants to change Masters (from Satan, to God) then sin is the first thing that has to be dealt with. It is really simple and logical.

"Let God do the work; we don't have to."

You are deceiving yourself. Although it is true that God's Holy Spirit is working in our hearts, but His mandate is to convict us of sin, and turn our eyes to Christ, Who can save us from sin.

The whole Bible, both OT, and NT tell us over and over and over, that we must turn away from sin, and that we have to repudiate sin and walk in God's ways. We are a lost race, we are hell bound sinners, and unless we turn around and repent, we cannot be born again. This is the Bible's Message.

It seems to me that you are confusing works with repentance. Our repentance doesn't take away from Christ's merit. Salvation is free for the repentant sinner. If one is not repentant, Christ cannot forgive him.

[Guest]

Graymousey -- might want to take a look at this site. They do a very good job of explaining how Jesus Himself won souls. He did it by confronting people with the reality of their sin before a holy God. I read through a couple of situations they mentioned on the site about how Jesus did this without getting into a long argument with the person. This is a really big help when witnessing.

Here's the link:

The Way of the Master

[Floatingaxe]

I don't mean to be pedantic, Graymousey, but I'm following your lead. What if, when I come to Christ, there's one sin I'm aware of and don't repent of it? Am I then not saved? If I must needs repent of all my sins (and all all means is all!), if I leave one out, what then? If someone is truly convicted of the Holy Spirit of the need for salvation, when you sit down to pray with that person, do you really tell them they need to repent of all known sins and have them go through them before they pray to accept Christ? Have you actually done this with someone?

John 3:16 has been described as the Gospel in a nutshell. But in fact, the whole chapter (or at least the first 21 verses) talk about salvation. I noticed that of all the verses quoted regarding repentence, none were from this chapter. Nicodemus asked what to do; Jesus answered. If repentence had been a part of it, don't you think Jesus would have told him? If it is so essential, why would Jesus leave it out? There are other verses, also, that do not mention repentance for salvation. "What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:30-31)

Salvation truly is between God and the individual. God is love, and I don't think man crushing others with repentance, essential or not, is the way to lead someone to Christ. The only reason a person can even want to accept Christ is b/c the Spirit draws him. Let God do the work; we don't have to.

Peace.

Yeah! I am sure that everyone who comes to Jesus Christ for forgiveness receives it. How many people can stand there and list every single sin at that time? I would venture to say that all of us, once saved, then will place our lives under the Lord's guidance for the lifelong process of SANCTIFICATION..the process by which we are made holy! That, of course, includes bringing to mind old unrepented of sins, and attitudes. These things the Lord works out in us as we "work out our salvation in fear and trembling"...

God is good at developing us into usable vessels for His purposes. It's His job..He is the potter, and we are only blobs of clay. Let God do the crushing!

Ouch? Amen!!

[graymousey]

"But God is up on His throne in Heaven, looking down on me, and He sees the one sin I am not willing to give up. Because of this (even though my heart is willing), He says, "No can do. Won't let you in. You need to clean it ALL up."

If you don't give up every sin that you are aware of, then what you say is not true, then your heart is NOT willing. It is not God Who will not take you in; it is the unrepented sin that will prevent you from entering.

God accepts sinners, but never together with their sins. Sin must be put down and left behind at the cross, and cannot enter into God's Kingdom.

This is exactly the point: God wants to eradicate sin from His Universe. It is written: No sin can get in.

This doesn't mean that after salvation one will never sin. We have the sinful nature, and we will sin till in this body. But the whole point in salvation is to have a willing mind to turn away from sin. Christ will forgive every repented sin again, and again, and again. But we have to have the will to side with Christ.

"I've never talked to anyone who has not wanted to sin--to at least a certain degree."

Our old nature loves sin, no question about that. But at the new birth we are given the divine nature.

We were talking about the time preceeding the new birth. At that time one has to have a determined mind to turn away from sin, and to walk with Christ. After the new birth we have two natures: The sinful one we were born with, and the newly implanted divine nature. These two are deadly enemies. Our will presides over them, and gives ascendency to one. Scripture tells us to grow on God's Word, in order to strengthen our new nature, and at the same time we are instructed to mortify our sinful nature by starving it. Remember, that the child of God died with Christ for sin, and resurrected with Christ to a new life. He must side with his new nature that hates sin.

Of course that we fail again and again. But when we do, we always can go back to the Lord Jesus Who would forgive us, and cleanse us.

"I guess my God is more loving and accepting and gracious than yours. "

The God of the Bible is loving and accepting when one turns to Him with a penitent heart. Sinners who don't repent are condemned and God's wrath is on them. (John 3:36)

The key to God's heart is repentance. But never will God accept anybody who wants to stay with sin. You cannot have it both ways; you have to choose, either sin, or Christ's righteousness. "Shell we continue in sin that grace may abound?" asks the Apostle Paul. Of course not. "How shell we, who dead to sin live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2)

"Look at Jesus and His life and His actions. He didn't demand anything but belief from people."

You are mistaken here. "The devils also believe and tremble.." The Lord Jesus said that "except ye repent, ye will likewise perish.." The message of John the Baptist also was: "Repent ye..."

Edited May 13, 2007 by graymousey