Old testament is useful

[forgiven1]

[sigh - I was afraid that's where this discussion was heading towards.

Well, that's just a little old tit for tat. In the earlier discussion I was told much the same thing so it was just a little reminder that Christian Zionism is not immune to such temptations. What New testament scriptures say the Torah as it was passed down is still the law for believers today? Something definitive and not interpretive. The law written in the heart is not definitive but interpretative because as I pointed out, scripture says the law written in the heart is not according to the one given to Moses.

[Guest shiloh357]

The law written in the heart is not definitive but interpretative because as I pointed out, scripture says the law written in the heart is not according to the one given to Moses.

No, that is not what it says. It says the new covenant that God will be make will not be like covenant made with the fathers. It does not say that the Torah will be different. It says God will write the commandments on their hearts, which is more of an esoteric way of saying that the power to keep God's commandments will come from within, in other words it alludes to the power of the Holy Spirit enabling the believer to live out the commandments.

Sigh - I was afraid that's where this discussion was heading towards.

Well, that's just a little old tit for tat. In the earlier discussion I was told much the same thing so it was just a little reminder that Christian Zionism is not immune to such temptations.

No, it is not "tit for tat." You are off subject by bringing up Christian Zionism. That is not the subject under discussion. If you want to complain about Christian start another thread.

[Guest shiloh357]

Without the Torah....and the resulting Jewish culture....we, as gentiles, have absolutely NO CLUE what it means to be Holy. Holiness becomes a concept outside the grasp of anyone not learned in the ways of the Torah and Israel.

Holiness is NOT righteousness.

Holiness is NOT being without sin.

Holiness is NOT being religious.

In fact, holiness is not something that we can become....we have to be made holy.

G-d declared the 7th day of creation Holy....a period of time cannot commit sin.....nor can it do anything to become righteous since it is not a person with free will. So what exactly is holiness?

The opposite of holy is common.

G-d spent over 2,000 years teaching a nation to understand these concepts. Why? To prepare the way for Jesus!

So that when John the Baptist said "Behold the lamb of G-d" No one was scratching their head wondering what in the world he was talking about. What's so special about a lamb anyways? It's just some dumb animal isn't it? Without the Torah, that's what we would think.

Very well put, vrspock!

[forgiven1]

The law written in the heart is not definitive but interpretative because as I pointed out, scripture says the law written in the heart is not according to the one given to Moses.

No, that is not what it says. It says the new covenant that God will be make will not be like covenant made with the fathers. It does not say that the Torah will be different. It says God will write the commandments on their hearts, which is more of an esoteric way of saying that the power to keep God's commandments will come from within, in other words it alludes to the power of the Holy Spirit enabling the believer to live out the commandments.

Sigh - I was afraid that's where this discussion was heading towards.

Well, that's just a little old tit for tat. In the earlier discussion I was told much the same thing so it was just a little reminder that Christian Zionism is not immune to such temptations.

No, it is not "tit for tat." You are off subject by bringing up Christian Zionism. That is not the subject under discussion. If you want to complain about Christian start another thread.

Well, what did God mean by "they continued not in my covenant" or whatever. He was saying they are not obeying the law and doing what they were supposed to do. I don't see how you can talk about the covenant without including the law as a part of it.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that if you can say that's what I'm doing, free speech runs both ways. Here's what you said and then let's leave it at that.

Again, you are trying to read your theology into Paul's words. You are interpreting Paul in the light of what you believe, rather than letting Paul's words speak for themselves.

Please post a definitive scripture from the new testament pointing out that the old law is still in effect, not one that has to be interpreted to mean that but speaks plainly.

[apothanein kerdos]

Please post a definitive scripture from the new testament pointing out that the old law is still in effect

Point out one that says they're not.

[forgiven1]

Please post a definitive scripture from the new testament pointing out that the old law is still in effect

Point out one that says they're not.

I already did, but here's another:

Hebrews 7:11-12

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Guest yod]

Please post a definitive scripture from the new testament pointing out that the old law is still in effect

Point out one that says they're not.

I already did, but here's another:

Hebrews 7:11-12

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And that is what we've been saying all along in this thread....

The law concerning the priesthood has changed.

If the Law HAD been rendered void, it would be easy to find a place where that is stated clearly. You can't do it because it isn't there....

Here are a couple you might want to consider while you go looking again...

Jesus - 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul - Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Here is an example of Paul observing the Law AFTER returning from his missionary journey to the Gentiles. He was meeting with the leaders of the original assembly (Jerusalem) which had Ya'acov, brother of Yeshua (James in the English) as the authority.

19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

In other words, James and the leadership of the original congregation had heard a rumor that Paul was speaking against the Law. They pointed out to Paul that how jews in Jerusalem were zealous for the law, and then asked Paul to show them that he was NOT preaching against the law by taking these 4 to the Temple for the requirments of purification according to the Law.

What was Paul's response? He complied without disagreement or protest.

Any intellectually honest disciple would accept that. Humble yourself...seek the Lord in His Word and find that this is true.

No one is trying to embarress you or humilate you in any way. We are simply asking you to seek the Word instead of theological doctrines you have received in ignorance.

[fromthesouth]

I think it is very important to read the Old Testament to understand better the New Testament...

And the Old Testament is rich in God

[forgiven1]

Please post a definitive scripture from the new testament pointing out that the old law is still in effect

Point out one that says they're not.

I already did, but here's another:

Hebrews 7:11-12

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

that says the law concerning the priesthood has changed.

Your point is?

I could have almost predicted a response like this. You know it's talking about THE law. The changing of the priesthood is a done deal, it has been changed already in this verse, and it says that makes a change of the law necessary also. It's also pointing out how Christ's priesthood was not according to the law signifying a big change of the law. The change of priesthood is indicitive of the law being changed.

Hebrews 7:14 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:16 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Hebrews 7:18-19 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

[apothanein kerdos]

So can I now have sex with an animal? It is only in the Law that such an act is forbidden.