God's Love: Conditional or Unconditional?

[OneAccord]

OA, you keep asking about the verses in Peter, well, I don't know all the answers.

I'll repeat my previous post here:

""We see in 1 Peter 3:19 that Christ preached to the spirits in prison, these sprits being the sons of disobedience who were destroyed in the flood. We are told in Gen 7:23 that they (along with all living things which were on the face of the ground) were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.

Now here in 1 Peter 3:19 we find Jesus preaching to them!!! and not only preaching, but according to 4:6 He is preaching the gospel (the Good News)!!! These spirits are in prison (which I believe is hell). These spirits in prison are called those who are dead in 4:6 and 4:6 goes on to say "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged (here's the judgement) according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

What does this mean--judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit?

Remember it's talking about the sons of disobedience here, those who every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. You would think they are burning forever and ever in hell, but here they are having the good news preached to them that they might live according to God in the spirit.

I think it is difficult for people to respond to this because it seems to be suggesting a second chance.

I will repeat these verses too as no one seems to be able to respond to these either:

Ezekiel 16:53 When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them.

16:55When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.

How do you explain these verses? Sodom obviously was nuked and annhiliated, who are these captives of Sodom? Aren't they buring in hell for eternity? What does He mean by bringing them back and returning them to their former state?

Matt.12

[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I told you I don't really understand about the unpardonable sin, and I also know that commentators tend to disagree about this one as well. Also the sin that leads to death in 3 John.

However it is interesting to note in these verses that all manner of sin shall be forgiven unto men. That looks pretty hopeful to me.

Also in this world or the world to come suggests a possibility of sin being forgiven in the world to come.

QUOTE 

Judgement destroys the power of the carnal mind which blinds, which is enmity against God---but judgement does not grant redemption. It only breaks rebellion. Redemption was purchased on the cross."" 

Can you show that to us, from the Bible? I have not seen it.

Judgement is a HUGE topic, I need a little time to compose a proper response. meanwhile I leave you with this verse:

Isa 26:9 When thy judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

[Guest shiloh357]

OneAccord,

I definitely have to disagree with you on this one. There are many brilliant scholars who devote their lives to linguistic studies and attempts to create new and improved translations. There are many, many translations surfacing in recent times, as well as far more Greek/Hebrew lexicons than the standard Strong's, which is not infallible. This new information age has opened up resources for these folks like never before.

Brilliant scholars? Brilliant according to WHO? What is the standard being applied here? Where did they get their education? What kind of degrees do they hold? What is their field of research? Strongs is not infalliable, but by what criterion do you judge any one of those concordances as beingbetter than Strongs? Are these concordances exhaustive or anylitical?

I would also like to add, that there is WAY MORE to understanding the meanings of Greek and Hebrew than looking things up in a concordance/lexicon. Languages are complex. Grammar, context, syntax, and other things play into understanding how words are used. Also there is the historical, and cultural issues that have to be taken into account. If you or anyone is just using a concordance/lexicon to support your position, you are doing yourself a great disservice.

Apparently the threat of eternal damnation doesn't seem to sway most of these folks either, as the conversion rate is rather low.

You are right about that. It does'nt. That, however, is beside the point. The point is that if one gets another chance to accept Christ after death, it completely nullifies ANY reason to be concerned on this side of eternity with regards to getting anyone saved. I mean, why would Paul be so concerned with spreading the gospel IF one could get saved after death and a period of punishment anyway? Why suffer persecution for spreading the gospel if everyone is going to get saved ultimately, anyway?

QUOTE

[Guest LadyC]

OA, would you please take the time to read the info available at this link? i think it will help you better understand 1 peter 3 and 4.

Read this

for further study, try this commentary... chapter 4 is on the page following this one.

[Guest shiloh357]

OneAccord,

Here's another question: What if after suffering for a season, a person still refuses Christ? What if they get their second chance, and they are still so stubborn, they reject Him out of spite because they had to suffer to pay for their sins? Does universalism allow for that, or does it dictate that you have be reformed even if you do not want to be?

[Guest Teri]

With all the scriptures put forth that All men shall be saved does one not wonder what is meant by them? Do we blindly push past them to see what we can do to be saved a bit more? Often times throughout the scriptures we run into things like they haven't been given ears to hear, what does that mean? Simply put here folks it is God who is in control here, it is God who decides who will hear and understand the gospel and who will not. The only difference between us and His children He keeps in the dark is responsibility. We get the lions share of the work, the responsibility and will be held accountable for our every thought pertaining to Gods word. By ignoring the fact that Christ came to save all men, and that it is God's express will that all should be saved, that in fact He took an oath with Himself as there was none higher than He, we are producing fruit in our thoughts and attitudes of superiority. All is vanity under the sun. We become quite judgemental and in all reality take His beautiful word and twist it to our own expectations that others don't deserve to be saved. WE also through this twisting of the gospel do the very thing that Adam and Eve did in the garden which is taste of the forbidden fruit that we might be like God and think we are capable of judging our fellow man. Even though we were given clear cut instructions to love God, love our neighbor, love our enemy, we go through our lives here justifying and rationalizing why we don't have to do this. We say with our mouths that we do love our enemy while arguing for a eternal torment to be put upon them. If this be Gods intention as you say and Christ didn't really provide the final sacrifice for all men, then ok. But why sit around and worry about it, why if you have Christ in you do you seek out every other religion, person and nation who does not believe as you do? Doesn't even the smallest amount of common sense tell one that if God so wills it, it will be done. It is pure vanity that makes a person think our puny little human wills will steal the majority of Christ's inheritance out of His hands. This vanity and not satan is what got us tossed out on our ears in the first place, satan only provided temptation, but he did't make anyone then or now do anything. And all those people you all so casually believe will be tormented forever are Gods and they provide a very great service to God in testing and tempting us whom He elected from the beginnings of the world to reign with Christ.

I would suggest if you can not understand God's true purposes and why He provides the balance of negative and positive in the fleshly realm then you should leave it alone. You will know them by their fruit. And nothing about arguing for the torment of the masses speaks of the fruit of the Spirit which is the fruit Christ speaks of. It's not passing out tracks, or organizing the church, or any of the carnal things we like to think it is. Contending for all this death to the rest of humanity is called blood lust, vanity, pride, selfcenteredness. It has no place in the body of Christ. You don't need to listen to me, but I can tell you by experience and throught the gospels that Christ will come as a lion into your life and purge you of those evil thoughts. Alll of us here together are working out our salvation with fear and trembling, every one of us here on planet earth are doing this together wheather you like it or not, or you believe it or not. Truth is not dependant on your opinion or mine, it just is what it is. When you get over your self long enough to truly look into Christ's eyes and see the love he has for every last one of His sheep and that this whole deal will not be over until he has every single one ushered into his fathers house then you will come to know God, not just know about Him through the Bible. Only then can you stand amazed at the glory of God. It is then He will write it upon the flesh of your heart and you will not have to scramble through all the dead letters to figure it all out. One Accord has provided all kinds of scripture to show this, and I could add alot more but what would be the point. You don't want to see it because then you couldn't feel so special and so deserving, so blessed. Solomon was right all is vanity under the sun, and all Christ asked you to do is love, forgive them those He keeps blinded for His own purposes for they know not what they do. Is it so much for Him to ask this of you?

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest Calamity]

...then you will come to know God, not just know about Him through the Bible. Only then can you stand amazed at the glory of God. It is then He will write it upon the flesh of your heart and you will not have to scramble through all the dead letters to figure it all out.

Surely, you're not referring to the Bible as "dead letters".

Hebrews 4

12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-

[OneAccord]

Brilliant scholars?

[OneAccord]

...then you will come to know God, not just know about Him through the Bible. Only then can you stand amazed at the glory of God. It is then He will write it upon the flesh of your heart and you will not have to scramble through all the dead letters to figure it all out.

Surely, you're not referring to the Bible as "dead letters".

Hebrews 4

12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-

[traveller]

OA, question here. Earlier you said that salvation is not acheived through the fear of hell. (not is those exact words though) But,form what I can understand from what you are saying, is that after death those unbelievers go through a temporary punishment, until they accept Christ? Is this what you are saying? Because if it is, then instead of fear, they are brought to salvation through pain of torture? In essence, eventually forced to accept Christ? For you think ALL will be brought to salvation? If these things are so, then it makes no sense that we would have been given free will in the first place. Being forced to accept is no better than puppets.

Every knee will bow every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen. I believe that is saying that we will ALL acknowledge that Christ is LORD, whether we have submitted to Him or not. When all is revealled, there will be no doubt. There will also be no more faith, for that will have passed away.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[OneAccord]

Dear sister Traveller:

You ask some very good questions, as everyone here has been doing.

First I want to say that the subject of Universal Reconciliation is huge and vast, and it takes much time to study these things out, like the Bereans did when the gospel was introduced to them. It is hard to explain major Biblical themes in short posts, as each one has been the subject of untold volumes of books.

As a disclaimer, I am forced to admit that I am just one soul searching out the deep things of God, like you. God's plan for the restoration of all things makes much more sense to me than the creation of billions of people for eternal destruction. It also thrills me to consider it and my love for God and my fellow man has abounded in me to new heights because of it. If I err on the side of God being far more loving and merciful than the doctrine of eternal hell gives Him credit for, than so be it. If He wants to toast me for believing in His UNFAILING love, then what can I say? If He asks me to forgive my brother seventy times seven times and to love my enemy and bless those who curse me, then I must believe that He will do the same.

OA, question here. Earlier you said that salvation is not acheived through the fear of hell. (not is those exact words though) But,form what I can understand from what you are saying, is that after death those unbelievers go through a temporary punishment, until they accept Christ? Is this what you are saying? Because if it is, then instead of fear, they are brought to salvation through pain of torture? In essence, eventually forced to accept Christ?

There are varying beliefs in the universalist circles about how His redemption will be accomplished in the ages to come and in the unseen realms. Some believe that it is not Christ that tortures but each person's own sin and iniquity that will torment them, if they die in them. The love and light of Christ will be so appealing that they will not be able to resist being drawn to Him. Just as the law shows us the perfection that God requires of us and none can live up to it, so does the love of Christ expose the darkness, who could bear it?

For you think ALL will be brought to salvation? If these things are so, then it makes no sense that we would have been given free will in the first place. Being forced to accept is no better than puppets.

The question of freewill verses predestination is a topic that has confounded theologians for centuries. So don't think for a minute that I can do it justice in a brief post.

BUT this is an extremely important question. Did God choose us or did we choose God? If God knew beforehand that most of His people would reject Him and He would have to torture them forever in hell, why did He bother to create them in the first place? What's the point of freewill if most will use it for their own destruction?

I am actually leaning more towards election/predestination than towards freewill, which is deeply humbling. Gasp! Does that make me a Calvinist? Well, sort of, except that I believe that He is calling out a firstfruits in this age unto a greater harvest in the ages to come.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast

Is choosing salvation a works? Did Paul choose salvation? The apostles?

This really is a topic for a thread of it's own.

Every knee will bow every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen. I believe that is saying that we will ALL acknowledge that Christ is LORD, whether we have submitted to Him or not. When all is revealled, there will be no doubt. There will also be no more faith, for that will have passed away.

This verse is usually interpreted that those who accepted Christ in this lifetime will bow willingly and the rest will bow grudgingly. But if you look to Rev 5:13 we see every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them saying "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever!"

praising Him! There is another scipture somewhere that says that no one can confess that Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit.

I believe that these vereses are pictures of the climax of the ages when all have come into the kingdom, when the light and the love of God has won out over the darkness.

Being forced to accept is no better than puppets.

This is a prideful statement. Salvation is a gift. Do you feel forced to accept gifts from your loved ones, or are you grateful for them? Once you have been blessed with the gift of grace and had the veil torn away from your heart, how can you but praise Him and be eternally grateful? You might say that Paul's gift was forced upon him, do you think he was a puppet?