Original Sin

[4Pillars]

According to the Scripture....

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20

God Bless

Right. Yet this has nothing to do with the inheritance of sin from Adam. The sin that ll of humanity is born into is a corruption of the soul and a blockage from the tree of life - from God's eternal life. Every man is accountable for his own sin, as the verse says. There is no contradiction.

BTW: Are you a Jehovah's Witness by any chance?

Dear Ovedya,

What we inherited from Adam is our natural corruptable body (flesh and blood) not the "original sin" -- that is why you need to be Born Again Spiritually from natural birth in order to inherit the kingdom of God. -- if that's what your trying to accomplish.

Read again...

1 Corinthians 15

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. v47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. v48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. v49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. v50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

See, even Adam had to be created in the image and likeness of God spiritually (born again) after they have sinned (Gen. 5:1-3) in order to inherit the kingdom of God. So, please, let us not continue blaming A&E for our own iniquity. Had it not been the case, perhaps, we won't be here enjoying our own little world -- waiting for the eternal life as promised.

BTW, I don't belong to any organized denomination. I am a born again Christian.

God Bless

Edited June 2, 2007 by 4Pillars

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

If this is a true theological difference than it's really just splitting hairs. By what have we inherited a "fallen nature"? If the fallen nature prevents us from heaven, then it is logical to presume that the fallen nature includes sin. Your argument that Jesus would have been born into sin is irrelevant to the facts of the Scriptures:

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15)

What is "the feeling of our weakness"? It's the attractiveness of sin, which, had we not been born with such a nature would not compel us to sin.

The question is not what caused the fall, which is the sin of Adam, but what is or consitutes the fall. It is the judgment against that sin, namely death. We inherit that judgment, the judgement itself in not sin, nor sinful. it is simply a state of being, namely, mortal. It is a fallen state, the human being without life. He lives is a survival mode, dying and eventual death. The separation of body and soul, thus dust. God told Adam that out of dust He made man and the punishment would be dust to dust.

If mankind actually inherited sin then we have a theological and scriptural problem in that Christ in assuming our natures, our fallen natures would have assumed sin. Christ would have been literally sinful, it would not matter that He did not sin, He would have been sinful. Christ receives our human natures from the Virgin Mary. This is why the RCC has such a difficult time with their interpretation of the Original sin. Which is that man inherited sin and guilt of Adam. Now, to keep Christ pure, they developed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary to say that Mary was without the effects of the fall, namely their interpretation, that man inherited sin and guilt of Adam.

The fallen nature does not include sin, but gives mankind the propensity of sin and to sin. We live in the flesh, that is, the flesh has dominion over the spirit and will of man. Man turns from God and to self. That is why scripture says that we must deny ourselves and take up our Cross and follow Christ. Following Christ is the opposite of serving self.

Jesus was born both divine and human. He "put on humanity" (Phil. 2:7), in the "image of humanity," yet without sin, because His nature was wholly divine and human

Yes, without sin. Thus a fallen nature he assumed to heal. But not a sinful nature or sin itself.

That "mortal nature" is infused with sin:

"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5)

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9)

"...the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19b)

I'm not sure you are actually trying to distinquish between fallen nature and a sinful nature, but what you say is correct. We sin from our fallenness. We do not sin because we are sinners, We are sinners because we sin, propeled or compeled by our mortal natures.

this is physically and spiritually impossible. An apple tree produces apples because it's an apple tree. It's obedient to its nature. A tree that produces apples is always an apple tree, not a lemon and not an orange tree. Likewise, we sin because we have the nature of sin wrought into us. The "fruit" of sin is sins.

Is the tree an actuall apple or just a tree? We have a fallen nature which produces sin. So it is true to its nature. The mortal flesh drives our desires. We can resist those desires. We can change considerably, but we cannot ever not sin at all in this life.

We sin because we have the sin nature. The "sin nature" is synonymous with the "fallen nature."

Ok, but then explain to me how you would theologically separate Christ assuming our natures and not be sinful. He would not need to sin, He is already sinful, a convicted sinner as you said earlier. He could not resist sin, because He is in reality sin.

[Ovedya]

Ok, but then explain to me how you would theologically separate Christ assuming our natures and not be sinful. He would not need to sin, He is already sinful, a convicted sinner as you said earlier. He could not resist sin, because He is in reality sin.

I really only need respond to this, since it's the focal point of your argument.

As I explained above, Jesus was born with two natures: Human and divine. Scripture appears to imply that the fallen human nature (That is the nature of sin) is inherited from the father's lineage. Therefore, if that is indeed the case, Jesus possessed both the human nature in it's supreme state and the divine nature which is devoid of sin. Irregardless, Jesus was born without original sin. We need not quibble over the trivial affairs of humanity when it comes to the God-man! In fact, Phil. 2:7 implies that God's having assumed the form of humanity excluded that which is flawed with it by using the words, "in the form of." So either way, God was incarnated without original sin. Yet orignal sin persists in humanity from birth.

BTW: You completely ignored my Romans vs. Genesis argument.

[firehill]

Horizoneast, 4Pillars, and Thaddaeus. Thanks for explaining it much better than I could.

[Ovedya]

Dear Ovedya,

What we inherited from Adam is our natural corruptable body (flesh and blood) not the "original sin" -- that is why you need to be Born Again Spiritually from natural birth in order to inherit the kingdom of God. -- if that's what your trying to accomplish.

Be very careful here. this strongly hints at Gnosticism. Man was flesh and blood from the beginning. He was created as such!

Read again...

1 Corinthians 15

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. v47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. v48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. v49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. v50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

See, even Adam had to be created in the image and likeness of God spiritually (born again) after they have sinned (Gen. 5:1-3) in order to inherit the kingdom of God. So, please, let us not continue blaming A&E for our own iniquity. Had it not been the case, perhaps, we won't be here enjoying our own little world -- waiting for the eternal life as promised.

BTW, I don't belong to any organized denomination. I am a born again Christian.

God Bless

This is actually the Gnostic heresy in a nutshell. The misinterpretation of 1 Cor. 15. is one of the serious errors involved with Gnosticism. I'm glad that you're not Jehovah's Witness, but they essentially promote the Gnostic heresy, and your theology is clearly leaning that way.

[Ovedya]

Horizoneast, 4Pillars, and Thaddaeus. Thanks for explaining it much better than I could.

Why wouldn't you believe that man was born without sin? You've ignored very clear, very straightforward Scriptural teaching in the past on these boards.

[Ovedya]

God reprimands the children of Israel for thinking the child suffers for the sins of the father...

The word of the Lord came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: 'The parents eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

This is a response to your post to Diolectic.

1) This is completely contradictory with the Bible's teaching. It further defies God's speaking in Genesis: "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5) The heart of man is the seat of his soul. Therefore, sin is present within man's soul from the moment of birth. There is no "age of accountability" in the Bible.

Not immediately from birth. We are born innocent. Here again the problem of Christ assuming our nature. He did not assume our sin, or what you call a sinful nature, but a fallen nature, It is a nature that sins, but that is not saying the same thing.

2) Were it true that only physical death was passed on from Adam, then Romans 5:12 would be a contradiction of Genesis:

Rom text is a confirmation of a physical death to Adam. The whole problem with man is that mankind fell and death was the consequence. We became mortal and our mortal nature precluded any spiritual union for etenrity.

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.

And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die!" (Gen. 3:3-4)

Eve did not die the instant she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Neither did God kill her. Yet from the latter verses it is clear that she had inherited sin from that tree and so was spiritually dead:

Just the other way around. Both died instantly. The became mortal. Now it is their mortal nature that is sinning. We sin because we are mortal. We don't become mortal because we sin. The only death mankind will ever suffer outside of that one consequence of Adams judgment is a spiritual death. Since we are born dead, inherited mortality, it is all about a spiritual death after that. Paul confirms the order in I Cor 15:46. Christ reversed the fall by doing it in the same order. He died physically to redeem mankind, so that man might have life, then be able to have that eternal life with Him, a spiritual union for eternity.

I believe that the problem with your argument stems from a grave misunderstanding of God's creation in Genesis. In God's creation before the fall physical death had to be present.

Quite the contrary. Man was not created mortal. Why would God create a being that would simply live a short time then die and cease to exist. No, God created man neutral. He was neither mortal nor immortal. He had the choice of going either way. We know he fell, became mortal.

For trees and herbs to reproduce death must be present. Even Jesus, in foretelling His own death and resurrection said, "Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24) Adam and Eve were created in maturity. Yet that is not to say that they were created to have lived forever. Physical death is not the production of evil. god created every natural cycle in the universe: Trees, plants and animals, even stars and planets all die as a part of the cycles that God has created.

And that is the precise reason why Christ redeemed the universe. When Adam fell, death and corruption spread to the universe. This is confirmed by texts such as I Col 1:20-24 and several more just like it.

now look at Genesis 3:22, the bolded part. This is after the fall of man. God purposefully blocked the way to the tree of life (that is, obviously, eternal life) so that man would not eat of the tree and live forever. And had that verse been completed is probably very well would have said "...in his sin." because obviously that's why God blocked the way to the tree of life.

You just about have it right. Eternal existance with a fallen state. Rather than immortality in a glorified body, we would be immortal in our sinful flesh. That is why Christ did not change our natures in this life, but permitted them to die to shed that earthly, mortal, sinful flesh. We will be raised in incorruptibility, immortal and glorified.

So man in the garden did not inherit physical death, but spiritual death, and was in need of eternal life.

You are right he was in need of an eternal life, but not in a fallen state or mortal state. Spiritual life or a spiritual union with Christ does not grant eternal life. It is simply a union, a convenental relationship with Christ. All it does provide is an eternal life with Him, rather than an eternal life apart from Him.

Yet for man to have access to God's eternal life, sin and Satan had to be thoroughly dealt with. Jesus accomplished such a dealing on the cross. Now we have access to the tree of life, which is Jesus, through the blood of Christ.

yes, both death and sin was dealt with. Christ reversed the fall. He redeemed His entire creation. Brought life to mankind and the universe. It will not be destroyed but purified. But all men will be raised, all men have been freed from the bondage to death and sin. We were freed, just so we could be free to join in a spiritual union which was the created purpose of man. Adam was already enjoying a communion with God when he sinned and brought death to mankind. Death precluded eternal life and an eternal union with God.

[firehill]

Horizoneast, 4Pillars, and Thaddaeus. Thanks for explaining it much better than I could.

Why wouldn't you believe that man was born without sin? You've ignored very clear, very straightforward Scriptural teaching in the past on these boards.

For starters the bible doesn't say such a thing anywhere. 'Man is born with sin.' Where is it? The verse that is used to supposivley say such a thing is a bad translation as has been lade out before in some thread on this same topic. Where is the very clear straightforward verse, just one I ask. If only we could stay as close as possible with our own words to what is written we'd actualy have alot less divisions, debates, confusion etc in the body. Too such reveals that we've learned or learned not from it's pages.

We inhereited death, the very judgement that came upon Adam just as God SAID that he would die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which is also another thing we inherited, that knowledge. Beginning in Genesis thus far it seems pretty clear to me!

Not immediately from birth. We are born innocent. Here again the problem of Christ assuming our nature. He did not assume our sin, or what you call a sinful nature, but a fallen nature, It is a nature that sins, but that is not saying the same thing.

If this is not true then he was not made like us in every way and WOULD NOT therefore have been the perfect sacrifice.

Quite the contrary. Man was not created mortal. Why would God create a being that would simply live a short time then die and cease to exist. No, God created man neutral. He was neither mortal nor immortal. He had the choice of going either way. We know he fell, became mortal.

Which is why he needed to eat from the tree of life in order to live forever and death was the result of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

[Ovedya]

For convenience sake I've made your comments blue and mine red:

This is a response to your post to Diolectic.

" 1) This is completely contradictory with the Bible's teaching. It further defies God's speaking in Genesis: "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5) The heart of man is the seat of his soul. Therefore, sin is present within man's soul from the moment of birth. There is no "age of accountability" in the Bible. "

Not immediately from birth. We are born innocent. Here again the problem of Christ assuming our nature. He did not assume our sin, or what you call a sinful nature, but a fallen nature, It is a nature that sins, but that is not saying the same thing.

Have you not read my last TWO (perhaps three) responses to this issue? Address the argument directly as I presented it, please, rather than reiterating what you've already written.

2) Were it true that only physical death was passed on from Adam, then Romans 5:12 would be a contradiction of Genesis:

Rom text is a confirmation of a physical death to Adam. The whole problem with man is that mankind fell and death was the consequence. We became mortal and our mortal nature precluded any spiritual union for etenrity.

Again, asked and answered. Please address my argument rather than reiterating your own points.

(previous comment to which to responded)

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.

And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die!" (Gen. 3:3-4)

Eve did not die the instant she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Neither did God kill her. Yet from the latter verses it is clear that she had inherited sin from that tree and so was spiritually dead:

Just the other way around. Both died instantly. The became mortal. Now it is their mortal nature that is sinning. We sin because we are mortal. We don't become mortal because we sin. The only death mankind will ever suffer outside of that one consequence of Adams judgment is a spiritual death. Since we are born dead, inherited mortality, it is all about a spiritual death after that. Paul confirms the order in I Cor 15:46. Christ reversed the fall by doing it in the same order. He died physically to redeem mankind, so that man might have life, then be able to have that eternal life with Him, a spiritual union for eternity.

This is more Gnosticism! AGAIN, I addressed the issue of mortality and the mistaken assumption that death is evil in my previous response. Will you not meet this argument head-on?

You are right he was in need of an eternal life, but not in a fallen state or mortal state. Spiritual life or a spiritual union with Christ does not grant eternal life. It is simply a union, a convenental relationship with Christ. All it does provide is an eternal life with Him, rather than an eternal life apart from Him.

This is absolutely false according to Scripture. A "conventional relationship" with Him? No! An essential relationship with Him. Even in Him. with Him, and by Him!

(My previous comment)

Yet for man to have access to God's eternal life, sin and Satan had to be thoroughly dealt with. Jesus accomplished such a dealing on the cross. Now we have access to the tree of life, which is Jesus, through the blood of Christ.

yes, both death and sin was dealt with. Christ reversed the fall. He redeemed His entire creation. Brought life to mankind and the universe. It will not be destroyed but purified. But all men will be raised, all men have been freed from the bondage to death and sin. We were freed, just so we could be free to join in a spiritual union which was the created purpose of man. Adam was already enjoying a communion with God when he sinned and brought death to mankind. Death precluded eternal life and an eternal union with God.

Now you're on to the Universalist heresy...as well as Gnosticism. What will you arrive at next?