Original Sin

[firehill]

Let me rephrase. God's image cannot be marred upon a person being BORN or created in God's image. All of man is made in God's image not just ADAM. God's purpose to make man in this way cannot be touched. Once one sins then that image becomes distorted.

Where is this in scripture? Where does it say we're born in the perfect image of God?

I didn't say 'perfect' nor did I imply the incorrutable though the image cannot be marred intell one committs an act of sin.

The fact that babies die in the womb disproves what you're saying, as our physicality is still partially in the image of God.

As God told Adam that he would die for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, all die IN Adam. So, no the fact that babies die in the womb proves that when the bible says all die IN Adam, it's accurate.

Yes, it means that Adam and Eve were the only people in history, with the exception of Christ, who were born in the perfect image of God. Since them, the image has been marred, physically and spiritually.

Adam and Eve were created without a fallen nature since they acquired one after the fall and Christ was born without a fallen nature having been born of a virgin. That's the point. A fallen nature is not the same thing as being born a sinNER.

That's one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard on this issue. Jesus was born a virgin - we are not. Jesus was fully God and fully man - we are not. Guess that means He's not the perfect sacrifice

Jesus was made like us in every way just as we are made that is, in God's image and being made this way excludes being born a sinner but does not exclude being born with a fallen nature. Jesus did not inherit the fallen nature though because he was born of a virgin. I'm of the view that the fallen nature is passed down through Adam because of his sin.

Regardless, David admits he was a sinner while in the womb. Paul says that through Adam, sin entered the world. Case closed.

David said that he was brought forth IN iniquity, that is a fallen nature. That is not the same thing as being born a sinNER.

[apothanein kerdos]

Fallen nature means "original sin."

We are born guilty of sin, but are not born "sinners." That is the point of having a "fallen nature." It means we are all born guilty of Adam's sin and will subsequently continue to sin because of it. We are guilty of Adam's sin at conception - we become sinners and guilty of our own sin when we sin. That's the entire point behind "original sin."

[firehill]

Just a few thoughts here as I'm trying to piece this all together:

Are we born in death (verses born in sin) that is, physicaly speaking or spiritualy or both? Are we born dead in Adam since all die IN Adam?

All die IN Adam for sin entered the world through Adam (Adam sinned when he ate) and death through sin (the consequence was death as God said).

1. Adam and Eve were made in God's image.

2. They fell by disobeying God. Death was the result of Adam's sin. What kind of death? Physical, spiritual, both?

3. This 'death' of humankind (the very nature of what it means to be human which would include a human spirit) made in God's image is inherited through our parents because all die physicaly including even Christ who died physicaly.

4. Christ was from above (spiritual) though while Adam was from the earth (physical) and while Adam was made in God's image Christ WAS God's image.

5. So the image of God which is passed down to all humankind, that was made of the earth dies (that which is of the earth has it's own spirit) and because of Adam's sin as it was corruptable to begin with. On the other hand, the image of God from above which died in our place is incorruptable (that which is from above, of God is incorruptable), and so Christ was resurrected. In Adam all die but IN Christ we live.

[firehill]

Fallen nature means "original sin."

I don't equate the two.

We are born guilty of sin, but are not born "sinners."

How so when born one has not yet comitted a sin?

That is the point of having a "fallen nature." It means we are all born guilty of Adam's sin

Cannot be guilty of sin we did not commit but we are all born with the knowledge of good and evil and thereby we die in Adam being guilty of evil and sin against God once we are aware of being accountable and once we comitt a sin.

and will subsequently continue to sin because of it.

We will sin because we are born in Adam in which there is death and the knowledge of good and evil.

We are guilty of Adam's sin at conception

Impossible.

[apothanein kerdos]

If all you're going to reply with are one liners and one word replies, you're a waste of my time. I deal with people who use intelligence, you have failed to qualify into this category.

[firehill]

Fallen nature means "original sin."

We are born guilty of sin, but are not born "sinners." That is the point of having a "fallen nature." It means we are all born guilty of Adam's sin and will subsequently continue to sin because of it. We are guilty of Adam's sin at conception - we become sinners and guilty of our own sin when we sin. That's the entire point behind "original sin."

Fallen nature does not mean 'original sin' if the doctrine of 'original sin' is an error. The bible nowhere says that we are born guilty of Adam's sin therefore you have no point about equating the fallen nature with 'original sin' because the doctrine is nowhere to be found in the bible anyway. No one is held accountable for anothers sin. Can you even provide that from the bible? God didn't hold Eve accountable FOR Adam's sin did he. Nope, certainly not according to the written record! Why else do you think he could have blaimed Eve for his own sin after eating from the tree? The knowledge affected his nature.

So no we are not guilty of Adam's sin but our own for even God addressed Eve's own guilt not her being guilty of Adam's sin when he asked her what she had done. We then will continue to sin not because we are all guilty of Adam's own sin because that is impossible but rather because in Adam all die. How do all die in Adam? Because he sinned and God said that if he was going to eat of the tree that he would die. Die why? Because he gained the knowledge of good and evil. So we are not guilty of Adam's sin at conception just as Eve was not guilty of his sin when God addressed her accountability. Original sin is a man made doctrine.

[caldog]

Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psa 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[firehill]

Firehill question for you

What does the fallen nature consist of?

Meaning what makes the nature of man fallen

The fall consists of Adam disobeying God and his receiving the knowledge of good and evil through his disobidience. Hence, he blamed his action of disobidience on Eve knowing that he himself was the guilty one. He KNEW he was the guilty one becuase 1) he was not deceived 2)God told him not to eat of the tree and 3) he knew what would happen if he did, that he would die.

In short then and beginning with Genesis, the fallen nature consists of the knowledge of good (one of the far ends of the spectrum) and evil (the other end of the spectrum) and all the in between. The fall occured once they ate of the tree of such knowledge. We know that it is a sin to do something against God KNOWINGLY like Adam did. Which is why Adam was held accountable becuase he FULL well KNEW what he was doing when he ate while Eve was not because she was deceived. Now when we sin we KNOW what we are doing at least beginning at the age of 'accountability or reason' that is, the age any one child can differientiate between good and evil. We KNOW what we are doing whether it is good or evil because we have the knowledge of good and evil since Adam ate of the tree. Without this knowledge then are nature wouldn't be fallen. Hence Adam and Eve did not have this knowledge, or new nature intell they ate of the tree of such knowledge as is obvious since a fall occured.

This is the fallen nature that Christ assumed made like us in every way even knowing good and evil.

[Ovedya]

And the wages of sin is....what?

Death since as the bible says in more places than one ALL HAVE SINNED not that all are born into sin. There is a difference.

A) The wages of sin is death.

B) In Adam all have sinned.

C) In Adam all die.

All of humanity is born into sin and therefore are condemned to the punishment of sin which is death. Christ came that we may have life, and that more abundantly. In death Christ conquered sin and death, and in resurrection uplifted humanity so that those who believe into Him would not perish (That is, that their soul would not perish), and the promise of resurrection was given to those who believe into Him.

[Ovedya]

Thaddeus,

Christ assumes our fallen natures, not a sinful nature. It is a sinning nature, but that is why Christ overcomes sin.

This is a contradiction!

You are saying:

A) Christ had a "fallen nature" like our own.

B) That "fallen nature" is a nature which causes all humans to sin.

C) Although Christ has the "fallen nature" he sis not sin.

What am I missing here?

My claim is that the fallen nature is the nature of sin within humanity. your claim is that the fallen nature is the nature by which man sins.

How is this not different.

You admit that:

A) Man is mortal. - I agree with that.

B) Man's mortality is in a "fallen condition." - I agree with that also.

C) The "fallen condition" of man's mortality is that which causes him to sin. - IO disagree.

but really it's just a splitting of hairs. If man is born mortal and it's that mortality that contains the nature by which man sins, then the mortality of man is the sin nature! You are claiming that mortality is handed down from Adam, but that sin is not. Yet you confess that there is a nature in mortality that causes man to sin. That is in direct conflict with your claim that sin is not inherited from Adam.

Do you see why this is such a confusing argument?