Odd ponderings

[Guest]

There is no physical evidence of a God

I had no intentions of winning anything.

I Have Jesus, Jesus Has Me. I have everything.

I Only Pray and Sometimes I Play.

You Are In Danger.

Only God Can Save You And Me From Our Just Wages And Give Us Eyes To See God.

We Only Win If We Lose.

The Bible Has The Words of Truth And of Life

Israel Your Creator Is Coming Back!

Maranatha!

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 45:5-13

Be Blessed

Love, Joe

[DarkNebulaWelder]

But what advantage does music give us? That's the point Nebula is asking. What advantage does complexities in symphony offer us in survival?

That's just it, AK....for humans, music has a much deeper significance than mere "survival."

For Christians, music is a way to connect us to God.

For philosophers, like Pythagoreus and Kepler, music was a way to connect us to the cosmos....although the whole "music of the spheres" theory became defunct long ago....but there are certain patterns in music that, in ages past, were connected to cosmological patterns.

I do think that music is a spiritual entity, which goes way deeper than mere aesthetics.

The fact that the same mathematical laws that govern the Universe also govern music says something right there.

[DarkNebulaWelder]

"Well, it doesn't provide an advantage, which means it contradicts natural selection...but it's still evolution."

If an attribute cannot be shown to demonstrably provide an advantage, this does not mean that evolution is invalid. It either means that

a) The attribute arises from a trait which provides some other advantage, and this attribute is a coincidence

or

b) The attribute arises from a trait which provides an advantage in an insufficiently understood way

Neither of these possibilities casts any shadow on evolution through the process of natural selection.

....but what is the ADVANTAGE?! THAT is the question being asked.

[DarkNebulaWelder]

"Facts And Observations Have No More Place In Evolutionarily Musings That The Divine Creator Does"

how so? i can show you independently verified studies that show evolution is a fact, even the Vatican agrees with me on that one.

Ya.....and the Vatican also believes that priests who molest children should not be prosecuted.

Nice correlation, there!!!!!

[DarkNebulaWelder]

SDSJap

Chimps have been observed taking turns in walking up to a recently deceased elder of the group, the daughter of the deceased collected flowers and placed them on and around the body. Sounds pretty cultured to me. As far as arts, complex Rain dances artsy enough for you?

Lol

[DarkNebulaWelder]

SDSJap

Chimps have been observed taking turns in walking up to a recently deceased elder of the group, the daughter of the deceased collected flowers and placed them on and around the body. Sounds pretty cultured to me. As far as arts, complex Rain dances artsy enough for you?

Lol

[DarkNebulaWelder]

SDSJap

Chimps have been observed taking turns in walking up to a recently deceased elder of the group, the daughter of the deceased collected flowers and placed them on and around the body. Sounds pretty cultured to me. As far as arts, complex Rain dances artsy enough for you?

Lol

[DarkNebulaWelder]

....but what is the ADVANTAGE?! THAT is the question being asked.

What evolutionary advantage comes with the ability to create music? I previously argued that either we do not know, or that it's a coincidence.

Do I misunderstand your question?

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding the question, or if I'm misunderstanding you're point.

So, basically, you're saying that it provides an advantage, but you're not sure what the advantage is?

If you don't even know WHAT the advantage is, how do you know if it's even an advantage?

I'm just not really following your reasoning, that's all.

At least, in my belief system, I know what the advantage is...to bring us into closer communion with God.

[nebula]

As I already said, I am not going to jump through hoops for someone who does not even research their posts and who accuses me of doing such baselessly

Cat hyoid #10

maybe you should have paid more attention in that class then, or done more research beofre making a baseless claim like you acuse me of doing

Chimps have been observed taking turns in walking up to a recently deceased elder of the group, the daughter of the deceased collected flowers and placed them on and around the body. Sounds pretty cultured to me. As far as arts, complex Rain dances artsy enough for you?

you are using a straw man to attack my debate and that can meanonly one of two things

either you dont read my posts

or you dont understand them

I dont know how better to explain it than to say music and art are not and have never been evolution, but merely a product of a brain(that evolved) capable of advanced though, such as tool making and curiosity

and for such a detail oriented person, i suggest doing far more research in further posts,

Australopithecus Hyoid Found in Ethiopia

Remarkably, some quite delicate bones not normally preserved in the fossilisation process are also present, such as the hyoid, or tongue, bone. The hyoid bone reflects how the voice box is built and perhaps what sounds a species can produce.

Fish Hyoid

+ hundreds more a simple google search of Animal Hyoid will bring you

Use Me!

Dear SDS,

I was sincerely trying to read your posts with honesty and integrity. Unfortunately, I seem to have a hard time explaining to people what I mean by my need for detailed explanations, for if my question were clear to your understanding, you would have not needed to resort to such anger that your links do not show what you have claimed they show.

And when I asked for an explanation of chimpanzee death ritual, it was because I sincerely had no idea what you were talking about and did not have the 1/2 hour to 1 hour time it would take me to Google this info. (I have a knack for not being able to find what I am looking for in these searches; maybe you can find what you need on the first page quite regularly, but I can't seem to figure this trick out).

I apologize for not being able to maintain a reasonable discussion with you, and I wish there was a way I could explain to you that what you think I am asking for is not what I am asking for.

[DarkNebulaWelder]

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding the question, or if I'm misunderstanding you're point.

So, basically, you're saying that it provides an advantage, but you're not sure what the advantage is?

If you don't even know WHAT the advantage is, how do you know if it's even an advantage?

I'm just not really following your reasoning, that's all.

At least, in my belief system, I know what the advantage is...to bring us into closer communion with God.

Cool. If it means anything, I value music highly. I started playing piano 25 years ago, and music is perhaps the art form I understand and appreciate beyond all others. So I see music as a good thing.

The reason I have been equivocating on this is that despite my appreciation for music, I do not feel qualified to argue that musical ability is a specific trait that has been selected for during the evolutionary process. If I had to guess (and I am now officially making this up), I would guess that evolution produced humans with ever-increasing intellectual capabilities, and natural selection, over time, resulted in smarter and smarter humans. This was definitely an advantage, because our ancestors' superior intellect helped them to not be eaten. It also allowed them to adapt (through innovation, not evolution) to their surroundings. Arctic people figured out how to survive in inhospitable conditions, for example. And as SDSJap has suggested, perhaps as humans found more time for activities beyond pure subsistence (because their intellectual capacity had produced a state where they were not constantly running from tigers, or gathering food, or freezing to death), cultural endeavors such as writing, music, Pac Man, and so on became possible. In this model, music is not an advantage, it is a byproduct (and a very lucky one) of an advantage.

I find this plausible, but it is of course speculation. How does it sound to you?