1 Timothy 2:15

[DarkNebulaWelder]

Could someone shed some light on this verse?

Is Paul referring to the curse of childbirth, initiated by God in Genesis?

[firehill]

Could someone shed some light on this verse?

Is Paul referring to the curse of childbirth, initiated by God in Genesis?

15Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Tim. 2:15 gives the answer as to whether the deceived woman can receive salvation even though she has been deceived by false doctrine. She (refer back to verse 12 the deceived Ephesian woman) will be saved through the Messiah born of the woman (the childbearing which is a noun and not a verb), if they (refer back to verse 12 the deceived Ephesian woman and her husband) continue on in their faith in God, love for the Savior, holiness, and self-control to stay away from false doctrine. This is how one deceived woman will be saved (and is a pattern for the salvation of all deceived teachers). http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/12/02/wh...hy-211-15-mean/

So, no v.15 isn't speaking about any curse of childbirth since the woman was not cursed by God. Rather she was blessed by God after her creation and the only hope mentioned in chp 3 of Genesis regarding the fall was that through her seed would come the savior. Her childbearing then could hardly be a curse especialy in light of through childbirth by woman the savior came! Christ wasn't birthed 'through' this supposed curse that many believe God placed on the woman. Even the Genesis text spells out that only the ground and the serpent were c-u-r-s-e-d. So since the only hope for humankind at the fall was THROUGH CHILDBIRTH (the birth of Christ) and on top of that since the Genesis text does not say that childbirth or child birth pains were 'c-u-r-s-e-d' Jesus Christ then did not come into this world through a curse (childbearing or birth pains).

Paul then is not speaking of a CURSE but rather the woman's SALVATION through the one childbirth of Christ so not of the dark but the light!

Hope that helped a little.

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"C-u-r-s-e-d are you above all the livestock

and all the wild animals!

You will crawl on your belly

and you will eat dust

all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring [a] and hers;

he will crush your head,

and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;

with pain you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,

and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"C-u-r-s-e-d is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat of it

all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow

you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

and to dust you will return."

[DarkNebulaWelder]

Yes...it helps tremendously.

Thanks so much!!!

[Botz]

I see it slightly differently.

G-d had said to Eve in the garden....Gen 3:16 He said to the woman: I will intensify your labor pains; you will bear children in anguish. Your desire will be for your husband, yet he will dominate you.

That may not have been a curse in so many words, but it gave the woman a harder time than necessary when bringing a child into the world.

In this section of 1Tim 2:15, the context is once again the relationship and order between a man and a woman, and what is required of them.

1Timothy 2:9 Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense; not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel,

1Ti 2:10 but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.

1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in silence with full submission.

1Ti 2:12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was created first, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.

1Ti 2:15 But she will be saved through childbearing, if she continues in faith, love, and holiness, with good sense.

It is as if the pain in childbirth is a 'memorial pain' that is personal to every woman ever created, and that no man can experience, it is a reminder that Eve did not come first, and that it was the woman who was deceived.

The thing is that a woman forgets the pain very quickly because of the joy she has at producing a child, and through child-bearing she now has a further role to play hence 'saved through child bearing', where she has the ability to input and disciple those that G-d gives her.

[DInsights]

Grace and peace from God and from the Christ unto all!

Paul is saying a woman (married female) shall receive eternal salvation in "bearing fruit" or "fruitfulness" (a child is a fruit) if they (husband and wife) continue in faith and love and holiness and temperance (mastery of the power of Christ or self-control in the mastery of the power of Christ).

Faith, charity, holiness (godliness) and temperance are all keys of the kingdom of God or preliminary fruit that a person brings forth while the course of the seed develops unto the fullness of fruit. Eternal salvation is a gift during the growth of the seed, which is the living and powerful word of the kingdom of God.

Edited June 16, 2007 by DInsights

[Neopatriarch]

1 Tim. 2:15 gives the answer as to whether the deceived woman can receive salvation even though she has been deceived by false doctrine. http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/12/02/wh...hy-211-15-mean/

It

[firehill]

That may not have been a curse in so many words, but it gave the woman a harder time than necessary when bringing a child into the world.

Wasn't a curse according to what God himself spoke saying what was actualy cursed. He is the one who said the ground and the serpent are cursed and He is the one who didn't miss a thing.

In this section of 1Tim 2:15, the context is once again the relationship and order between a man and a woman, and what is required of them.

1Timothy 2:9 Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense; not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel,

1Ti 2:10 but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.

1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in silence with full submission.

1Ti 2:12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was created first, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.

1Ti 2:15 But she will be saved through childbearing, if she continues in faith, love, and holiness, with good sense.

You can certainly chose to believe the passage to be saying that BUT what you cannot show is where the passage does actualy say that or speak of somekind of man/woman order therefore you are forcing your own preconcevied notions unto the text.

It is as if the pain in childbirth is a 'memorial pain' that is personal to every woman ever created, and that no man can experience, it is a reminder that Eve did not come first, and that it was the woman who was deceived.

You are kidding about birthing pains (pre fall) being a reminder to woman that she was created second, right? And even to those who do not believe in the bible? So by virtue of being created second the female is reminded of it by birthing pains, lol. Can you find that in the bible too? Birthing pains post fall are an effect of what Eve did, that is she ate and gave some to her husband. God did say to her 'what is this you have done?'

...and through child-bearing she now has a further role to play hence 'saved through child bearing',

Paul isn't speaking about 'women' and 'men' as he was in the immediate verses regarding worship. He's talking about a particular deceived woman, hence, 'she', in Ephesus. Childbearing also isn't a role to be played, lol, as even not all women can have children.

1Ti 2:15 But she will be saved through childbearing, if she continues in faith, love, and holiness, with good sense.

The first pronoun is singular 'she' as in 'but she will be saved through the childbirth'. Also in the Greek it is a noun for 'childbirth' not a verb as in 'childbearing'. And too the second pronoun is plural 'they' not a singular 'she' as in 'if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.'

15Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

It

[Botz]

That may not have been a curse in so many words, but it gave the woman a harder time than necessary when bringing a child into the world.

Wasn't a curse according to what God himself spoke saying what was actualy cursed. He is the one who said the ground and the serpent are cursed and He is the one who didn't miss a thing.

Yes....but what was pronounced upon the woman was not exactly a blessing It is interesting to reflect who was the direct recipient of the hardship caused by the ground being cursed

In this section of 1Tim 2:15, the context is once again the relationship and order between a man and a woman, and what is required of them.

1Timothy 2:9 Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense; not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel,

1Ti 2:10 but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.

1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in silence with full submission.

1Ti 2:12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was created first, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.

1Ti 2:15 But she will be saved through childbearing, if she continues in faith, love, and holiness, with good sense.

You can certainly chose to believe the passage to be saying that BUT what you cannot show is where the passage does actualy say that or speak of somekind of man/woman order therefore you are forcing your own preconcevied notions unto the text.

Actually it was not some preconceived notion of mine, I thought it was pretty obvious from the context that Paul is making a case for the authority of a man in relation to a woman as of a 'weaker vessel'.

It is as if the pain in childbirth is a 'memorial pain' that is personal to every woman ever created, and that no man can experience, it is a reminder that Eve did not come first, and that it was the woman who was deceived.

You are kidding about birthing pains (pre fall) being a reminder to woman that she was created second, right? And even to those who do not believe in the bible? So by virtue of being created second the female is reminded of it by birthing pains, lol. Can you find that in the bible too? Birthing pains post fall are an effect of what Eve did, that is she ate and gave some to her husband. God did say to her 'what is this you have done?'

Nope, it was just my santified G-d given curiosity that led me to make this very personal observation.

As far as I am aware all women, even those who do not believe in the bible, experience 'birth pains'.

It was just a suggestion on my part, that a woman was reminded of two things through what I personally called 'memorial pains' (rather like G-d placing His bow in the sky after the flood), namely that she was not the numero uno boss, but man was, and that second she was reminded of womankinds susceptibility to temptation and deception as recorded through the actions of Eve when confronted with Mr Serpent.

...and through child-bearing she now has a further role to play hence 'saved through child bearing',

Paul isn't speaking about 'women' and 'men' as he was in the immediate verses regarding worship. He's talking about a particular deceived woman, hence, 'she', in Ephesus. Childbearing also isn't a role to be played, lol, as even not all women

can have children.

Can't quite see your point Firehill...my point which was a righteous assumption on my part, and writ in water not in stone, is that when those women that are blessed with offspring produce their progeny, they now have an ongoing further role to play in life and in their position as a woman and now as a mother. I saw this very much as Paul talking about two seemingly negative aspects in relation to Eve, and thus womankind where he states

:-1Tim 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

and this is then balanced by Paul talking about the positive role that women who give birth can find themselves in as they have the joy of producing a child, and the challenge and responsibility of bringing the child up and instilling godly teaching into the child. 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. To me it appears as if Paul is now elevating the position of a woman in contrast to seemingly putting her firmly in her place in the verses immediately preceding this.

1Ti 2:15 But she will be saved through childbearing, if she continues in faith, love, and holiness, with good sense.

The first pronoun is singular 'she' as in 'but she will be saved through the childbirth'. Also in the Greek it is a noun for 'childbirth' not a verb as in 'childbearing'. And too the second pronoun is plural 'they' not a singular 'she' as in 'if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.'

15Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

I am none the wiser. Are you suggesting that she/Eve will be saved through the birth of Messiah.

I take your point that 'she' should have been translated 'they' in the second section of verse 15, I quoted from Holmans Christian Standard Bible which is a version I will not use again.

It

[Neopatriarch]

It

[FighterforJC]

That passage has led to many of interpretations. One explanation I've heard is that what Paul was really saying was, in the grand scheme of things, a woman will find fullfilment through child-rearing, not so much the actual child birth. Even so, the child rearing is only a picture of what God's blueprint is for woman. In the context of Paul's writings, that passage is most likely saying that a woman should not try to fill the role of a man. A woman will only find true fullfilment by being what God designed a woman to be.