Personal Testimonies

[MeCajunboy]

This is called placebo effect.

People experience changes, because they sincerely believe, that they must experience a change.

The christianity per ce has little to do with this change - there are just as many personal testaments to entirely similar change after converting to Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Krishnaism, Paganism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Polytheism (any you`d like), etc.

In short, any philosophy/religion has very similar accounts of converting people experiencing life-altering epiphanies.

This leads one to conclude, that there is no specific tie with any particular religion, but rather, with psychological effect of placebo. Quite similar to seriously ill people being "miraculously" healed by sugar pills, which are presented to them as powerful medicine.

Cajunboy::::When you make a statement like, "there are just as many personal testaments to entirely similar change after converting to Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Krishnaism, Paganism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Polytheism (any you`d like), etc. " you are not being totally honest with the audiance. We know this because of "statistics!" Please revert back to "statistics" on the internet of non-believers and compare the stats to those who "BELIEVE" in the supernatural power of GOD. and you should findt that NOT just as many of the non-beliefs can possible experience the same changes simply because of the percentages of Christians in the world. Also, some of those "religions" you mentions in an effort to outweigh Christians, also believe in the same God Christians believe in......just in a different way or fashion.

Be Blessed

Cajunboy

[Ishamael]

shiloh357 - If you identify as Christian, you are one, no?

That`s the exact problem here, see. Westboro Baptists also claim, that they preach true God`s word by bible. For all I know, you and Phelps have equal chance of being right.

So, who do I pick? Who is true christian? You or him?

That is what my question was about. How do I know, that YOU, and YOUR following posesses the mainline to God? How do I know you are not impostors, who use Bible to further your ends?

THAT is what`s scary about all who worships Christ (or claims to do so, anyway). You have so many divisions, and only one is true - and every one claims THEY are real McCoys.

How does one finds the true Christians? Are they Catholics? Baptists? Protestants? Anglicans? Orthodoxes?

Or maybe they are just good people, who don`t particularly care, what you believe in, as long as you coexist with them peacefully?

MeCajunboy - statistics of what? Of epiphanies? As far as I know, only christianity ever did centralised polls on how many people had found Christ to be a life-changer. Other religions are not that particularly interested, I suppose.

There were polls on to what religion people subscribe in, as far as I remember, but to get statistics on other religion epiphanies, one will have to do them manually, or trust potentially-biased sources.

Thus, my suggestion, that one needs to know the primary language of religion, to be able to scoop up larger amount of mass-media, that would have semi-veritable statistics or material for such.

[Guest shiloh357]

If you identify as Christian, you are one, no?

Not necessarily. Just because someone mentally assents to the Christian religion does not make them a Christian. True biblical Christianity is not a matter of identifying yourself as a Christian.

That`s the exact problem here, see. Westboro Baptists also claim, that they preach true God`s word by bible. For all I know, you and Phelps have equal chance of being right.

So, who do I pick? Who is true christian? You or him?

Notice how everyone is quick to point out that radical Muslim terrorists are not REALLY true Muslims. Yet, when it comes to those who claim to be Christians, people look for the lowest common denominator and the worst people they can find who claim to be Christian and want to define the rest of us by these people. While claiming that the Muslim radicals do not represent Islam and should be seen as reflective Islam belief and practice, the same courtesy is rarely, if ever, afforded Christians. Instead, people find folks like the Westboro group and demand that they be accepted as representative of Christianity. Again, there is no credibility in such approaches.

The Westboro group is a far stretch from the average Church on the corner, and you know it. 99.99% of those claiming to be Christians are not out on some fanatical hate rant like the Westboro group, and so to compare us to them is an unfair and ridiculous comparison. It's like comparing the aronist to the fireman.

If we wake up and hear on the news that a group of atheists murdered a preacher and burned down his church, should I judge all atheists because of the actions of that one group? Would you like to be lumped together with them and judged accordingly? Would you consider that to be fair?

THAT is what`s scary about all who worships Christ (or claims to do so, anyway). You have so many divisions, and only one is true - and every one claims THEY are real McCoys.

We have denominations, yes. So what? The thing is, that most of do not allow our differences in theological periphreals to cause us to hate one another. Sure you can find a bad apple in any group. Big deal. You are offering nothing but excuses for your unbelief. All of us who have Jesus living in our heart are the real McCoys.

Many denominations band together regularly and work together for community projects and we do this despite our differences. Our differences are overshadowed by the fact that we do agree on the most fundamental and the most important aspects of the Christian faith and that we are united together in our love for Christ. Unity is not the absence of diversity. We have differences of opinion, sure. We do not control each other, and we make room for differences of opinion. Our denominations, if anything, actually refute your basis for rejecting the Christian faith as "ridiculous."

How does one finds the true Christians? Are they Catholics? Baptists? Protestants? Anglicans? Orthodoxes?

Everyone who has been born again, who has made Jesus their savior and Lord is a true Christian no matter which denomination they are affiliated with.

[Ishamael]

Now, I do not agree with the accession that radical muslims are not true muslims.

In my opinion, anyone, who uses the guidelines represented in the specific book - Bible/Qu`ran/Torah/Vedah/Confucius Memoirs/etc., and openly claims to belong to religion basing on this book belongs to said religion, no questions asked.

And yes, I agree that there are nutjobs in every socium. Point is, that not all nutjobs announce their allegiance to religion so openly as both WBs and Muslim radicals.

I`ve yet to hear about atheists committing hatecrime in the name of atheism, frankly.

_____________________________

This is getting out of topic, though. Let`s get back to discussion of personal testimonies, everyone.

My opinion, as I already stated, that those testimonies show the placebo effect, as I`ve seen similar things occur with other religions/beliefs/superstitions.

If someone has conclusive proof, that christianity has significantly higher percent of such epiphanies, it would be an interesting topic to research.

I`m sceptical of this assertion, though.

[Guest shiloh357]

In my opinion, anyone, who uses the guidelines represented in the specific book - Bible/Qu`ran/Torah/Vedah/Confucius Memoirs/etc., and openly claims to belong to religion basing on this book belongs to said religion, no questions asked.

You are establishing a false standard.

The only way you can challenge Christianity, is apply a false value to it. Your apporach is intellectually dishonest and without any merit. You have to ignore the tenats of the faith and what orthodox followers believe since any honesty on your part about what Jesus taught and what Christianity teaches, would not allow your challenge to stand.

I`ve yet to hear about atheists committing hatecrime in the name of atheism, frankly.

You are missing the point. The point if something like that DID happen at some time in the future, you would not want to all atheists labeled as arsonsists and murderers. You would not think it fair to lumped into such a fake category, were people to decide the atheists promote murder and arson against Christians. Yet you have no problem lumping people like Westboro group in with the rest of us as equally valid representatives of Christianity.

Such comparisons only show how really beggardly and empty your pitiful challenge really is. You cannot bring yourself to demonstrate even a shred of intellecutal honesty in your approach.

This is getting out of topic, though. Let`s get back to discussion of personal testimonies, everyone.

My opinion, as I already stated, that those testimonies show the placebo effect, as I`ve seen similar things occur with other religions/beliefs/superstitions.

It's not off topic since the differences in Christian personal testimonies and what you have seen in other religions is that in Christianity, we give the credit to God, and that the difference in our lives is based upon religion but upon a tranformation of the heart and the indwelling of Holy Spirit. No other religion possesses a similar testimony. Christian testimonies of God's work in our lives are not stories of self-improvement, introspection, moral reformation, but of a complete and radical recreation. We, as Christians have died to our old selves, and are recreated on the inside into the image of Christ. We call ourselves New Creations based upon 2Corinthians 5:17

[Ishamael]

OOkay, that`s enough.

Cut the condescending tone, please.

My point is, once again, that noone in their right mind would even think to use atheism to justify arson or murder.

Yet, Christianity WAS used to justify all of the crimes it denounces. I think it would be entirely fair, that I`d treat every Christian with caution - I have no wish to be burned at stake, stoned, sold to slavery or conquered.

And once again - ALL of your denomiations claim to follow Jesus to the letter.

If you want your particular brand of Christianity to be treated differently, offer different reasons to do so. ALL of you claim you live by the Bible, yet I am informed of numerous things (none of which I would like to happen to me) done by people, who also claim to follow Bible to the letter.

The only way for you NOT to be lumped with them would be to show the difference. Something sorely lacking right now, with all the condescending and hostile tone. Are you defending your faith or doing your best to repel as many people from it, as you can?

There is one problem with your objection to generalisation. Atheists are NOT united by one common moral system. All of them have their own opinion on morals. Only uniting point between them all is a conviction, that there is no supernatural God in existance.

Christians, on other hand, ALL claim to be following quite rigid set of morals layed down in Bible. That gives more reason to lump them together, then you`d have to lump together atheists.

If two people have same hair color, same facial features, same height, and same look, it`s more or less fair to wonder, if they are related. That`s how Christians could be lumped together.

But suggesting people might be related, because they are all brunettes, for example, is potently ridiculous. That`s why Atheists can`t be lumped together without looking silly.

__________________

Muslims give credit to Allah for every day they live on. Your point?

[undone]

I`m quite sure, that if you could read arabic, your search would`ve turned up nothing but testaments for Islam.

If you could read Ivrit, your search would`ve turned up more then a fair bit of Jewish testaments.

So on and so on.

There are english speaking Islamic and Jewish forums like Worthy. I just went through several and none of them have a dedicated section for testimonies like most Christian forums have. I've searched for solid evidence of this same effect with those other faiths and have yet to turn anything up. I'll keep searching.

Still looking. Haven't found anything significant.

By the way - If a drug company produces a drug, lets say a painkiller, and its users report less pain when they use it, do we just write those results off as placebo effect just because we don't choose to take pills?

[Ishamael]

If report is from 5-10%, we write it off as placebo.

If report is from 85-100%, we write it on as success.

Simple, eh?

[Guest shiloh357]

Cut the condescending tone, please.

My intention is not to be condescending but rather to demonstrate the lack of honesty in your approach. I am sorry if it offends you, but it is the truth.

Yet, Christianity WAS used to justify all of the crimes it denounces. I think it would be entirely fair, that I`d treat every Christian with caution - I have no wish to be burned at stake, stoned, sold to slavery or conquered.

Again, more of the ridiculous comparisons. If you study history, you would note that the Church at that time, unlike today, was a political entity. The Church was the government, and wielded a totalitarian rod against everyone that opposed it.

But to act like such a thing is indicative of modern Christian behavior is completely unfair and again, dishonest. If that is being condescending, then so be it. Your responses do not deserve to be treated differently. Name ONE denomination that is calling for anyone to tortured or killed in the name of Christianity.

And once again - ALL of your denomiations claim to follow Jesus to the letter.

Our denominational differences exist less over the essential doctrines of Christ and more along the lines of ritual and peripheral issues. For example, some denominations do believe in musical instruments during worship, some believe communion should be taken every Sunday, etc. We may have differences over infant baptism or the timing of the rapture, or the operations of the gifts of the Spirit.

That does not mean that we do not follow the teachings of Christ. Who says they follow everyone of Christ's teachings to the letter? Again, you making an assertion that I don't think you can support. All of follow as closely as possible what we believe Jesus meant, but all of us are able to make room for the fact that we still have room to grow in the teachings of Christ. We cannot follow His teachings to the letter per se, since there is always more about Jesus' teachings to learn. No one has "arrived." We make room for the fact that we may be in error, in certain areas, it is in acceptance of that, that we continue to grow in our understanding of His teachings.

Frankly, your position relies more on mischaracterization of your opponents than any kind of reliable objectivety.

If you want your particular brand of Christianity to be treated differently, offer different reasons to do so.

Like I said, name one modern generally accepted mainline Christian denomination that is calling for anyone to be put in slavery, burned at the stake, etc. Name one Christian denomination that has lately murdered anyone in the name of Christ. If you can't produce that, then you have no right lump all Christians into the same pot.

ALL of you claim you live by the Bible, yet I am informed of numerous things (none of which I would like to happen to me) done by people, who also claim to follow Bible to the letter.

Then those people would have be judged by the Bible, wouldn't they? The Bible, namely the teachings of Jesus would be the plumline, the standard by which anyone claiming to be Christian would have to judged against.

The problem is that you judging true followers of Jesus against the most despicable people whom you can find who claim to be Christians. Instead of judging the Westboro Baptists against the teachings of Jesus, you judge all Christians against the Westboro Baptists. You hold them up as representatives of Christ and then hold the rest of us suspect on their account. Again, you possess no intellecutaly honesty about this.

There is one problem with your objection to generalisation. Atheists are NOT united by one common moral system. All of them have their own opinion on morals. Only uniting point between them all is a conviction, that there is no supernatural God in existance.

Christians, on other hand, ALL claim to be following quite rigid set of morals layed down in Bible. That gives more reason to lump them together, then you`d have to lump together atheists.

Christians do not claim to be united by one moral system. We claim to be united by our love for Jesus. Christianity is not a moral system. Christianity is relationship with God the Father by virtue of our union in Christ. We are united by the fact that we are members of God's family and are His Children and joint-heirs with Christ in our Father's Kingdom.

Our morality is the outworking of that relationship. It is precisely because the Westboro group does not demonstrate the outworking of the fruit of a dynamic relationship with God, that every Christian denomination has rejected them as being true Christians. We are not united with EVERYONE who claims to be Christian, but only those who are truly born again.

My example of the aronsists who happen to be atheists stands on the grounds that it makes no difference if atheists are joined by a common moral system or not. Such a thing would not have to be present for irrational people to begin lumping atheists together. The only point I am making is that you would not want to be on the receiving end of the approach you take to Christianity. You would not want to be judged by the same dishonest standard that you are applying here.

[Ishamael]

OK, that`s better.

First of all, I disagree with accessment, that religion is not political today.

Just take a look at Bush`s administration, and how it conducts the affairs of USA.

That, by the way, jointly answers the questions about denomination and murders in the name of Christianity. Denomination - I believe that Bush subscribes to conservative protestantism. Murders - every yankee and arab dying in Middle East.

(Note, that I am not specifically against the middle east problem being solved forcibly. What I`m pointing out is mere religious allegiance. Which, in turn, is just a cover-up for simple conflict over resources.)

_____

As for judging Christians by their worst... Well, my apologies to all christians who does not subscribes to the idiocity of those I mentioned. But you know how it goes - herd is judged by loudest cow.

I`m judging Christians by what I see. And I see much more filth, lies, and dishonesty from christians, then reason, kindness or truth.

And while I would like to believe there are christians, who are not dishonorable creatures, I`ve yet to see a society of such. I`ve met both saints and abominations among those who identifies as christian, individually. But I`ve not seen a SOCIUM of christians which is not xenophobic, bigoted and hostile.

If you can show me, that you are not such, I would be more then glad to admit, that I was wrong in my generalisation. I always give due.

_____

Now, about moral system...

That is a bit more complicated, then you want to break it up to be.

While the words about love to Jesus are a fine sentiment, that does not changes the outcome.

Whatever your reasons would be, you all do claim to uphold the ten commandments universally, no matter what denomination. Similarly, most denominations an mass claim to follow the moral guidelines of Bible, no matter what their reasons for doing so might be.

Now, considering the fact, that I`ve witnessed people from numerous denominations casually break the rules they claim to be devoted to (out of love to Jesus, or fear of hell - no matter), I think you can understand, why I would be wary.

My experience with christians is NOT a pleasant one, and while I would like to treat you friendly, I have to put up some defences in case you will uphold my stereotype of christian yet again. Nothing personal against you, or Jesus.

To quote Ghandi - "I like your Christ. I don`t like your Christians. They are so unlike Christ."

Edited June 18, 2007 by Ishamael