Personal Testimonies

[Ishamael]

Excuse me?

A. I was presenting a case of religion used politically. Obviously, there would be also cases of same religion not used politically. Religion, which is used exclusively as political tool is called theocracy.

B. Don`t you? Sure feels so.

C. Now that assertion is simply ridiculous. Since then average of all bad does not equals bad? To reiterate - I`ve not experienced a society of christians, which would not exude xenophoby, hostility and bigotry. By the law of averages, all christian societies should be such, so far. If you were to show that you are NOT such or point out other society which is not such, by the law of averages, my overall generalisation of christian societies would`ve improved as well. Not the other way.

[Guest shiloh357]

First of all, I disagree with accessment, that religion is not political today.

That is not what I said. I said that in earlier times, the Church was the government. That is not true today. The Church is not political entity or party.

I believe that Bush subscribes to conservative protestantism. Murders - every yankee and arab dying in Middle East.

Your approach is getting weaker each time you post. Busch Arabs are not dying in the name of Christianity. US Military is not the Christian military. Honestly, I cannot believe you would even grasp at such a weak straw. The war in Iraq is not a case of the Church operating as a politcal entity.

As for judging Christians by their worst... Well, my apologies to all christians who does not subscribes to the idiocity of those I mentioned. But you know how it goes - herd is judged by loudest cow.

Sorry but just doesn't cut it. You won't judge Christianity by the Bible because your position would not hold up. Judging Christianity by the teachings of Jesus would be the objective and only reliable approach. Instead, you have an axe to grind, so you try to find the worst people you can find and color everyone else the same color. Again, no credibility where intellecual debate is concerned.

I`m judging Christians by what I see. And I see much more filth, lies, and dishonesty from christians, then reason, kindness or truth.

You see what you want to see. Frankly, your experience is not an accurate barometer for anything. You either incapable or unwilling to be the least bit objective or fair. So in that, you have NO right to point fingers at Christians. You are just as dishonest as the people you alledge to be dishonest. That makes you hypocrite, since you justify for yourself the very thing you condemn in others.

Whatever your reasons would be, you all do claim to uphold the ten commandments universally, no matter what denomination. Similarly, most denominations an mass claim to follow the moral guidelines of Bible, no matter what their reasons for doing so might be.

I am simply pointing out the motives for why we follow and uphold the Ten Commandments.

Now, considering the fact, that I`ve witnessed people from numerous denominations casually break the rules they claim to be devoted to (out of love to Jesus, or fear of hell - no matter), I think you can understand, why I would be wary.

That is nothing but an excuse. Christians do fail from time to time. That is true. So what? Again, your judgement of the Christian faith should be by the teachings of Jesus. There are hypocrites in the Church, that is true. However, the Christian faith is not based on the Church. The Christian faith is based upon the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus was not a hypocrite. Jesus is the standard. He is the one you should ultimately be examining. Christians are still human and still live in a broken world. They have same personality/character flaws that exist in all people. Rain falls on Christians too. Sometimes Christians react differently than they should. Sometimes Christians cave into temptations and do and say things that are sinful.

You can find all kinds of things wrong with us all day. That still does not give you much of an excuse to lump us all in the same basket with worst of the worst. It is one thing to slip and fall and it is quite a different thing altogether to live unapologetically in abject sin and irrational hate like Westboro group does.

[Ishamael]

You want to be judged by Bible?

Fine. You are abominations. You promote slavery, stone for minitae transgressions against nonsensical rules, and cultivate xenophobic intolerance towards anyone not belonging to your circle - which intolerance comes as far as genocide.

Better now? This is ALL shown in Bible. Advices on how to sell own daughter to slavery, commandment to stone for anything resembling work on Saturday, description of slaying whole cities - women and children included, by DIRECT command of God.

--------

Yet, being a reasonable person, I recognise, that Bible is in equal parts historical account and allegory, and I chose to overlook the glaring crimes promoted in Bible for the sake of convention.

Folowing that, I completely omit Inquisition`s crimes against humanity - the staple of atheist accusations, as you all must remember by now. It`s history, it`s passed over, it`s been a mistake.

Instead, I turn my attention to most modern developments. And WHAT do we see? Same xenophoby, bigotry and intolerance? And you DARE to say I should judge you by Jesus?

Jesus is a great philosopher, I agree with a lot of what he says. And I do recognise him as a prominent historical figure, which I give due to. He, in a big way, shaped world into what it is now.

_______________

My beef is not with Jesus. My beef is with followers, who claim to follow the words of Jesus.

Yet... The voice is of Jesus, but hand is pillow-cased claw of Ku-Klux-Klan.

If you ARE christians, show it, for crying out loud. You all do nothing but judge others, secure in your own delusion of righteousness, but when someone judges you, you get bent all out of shape.

Is it not your saying - "What would Jesus do?"

I don`t know.... Renounce his allegiance to modern Christianity, maybe?

_____________

I would love to talk to Jesus. I would have much to ask him about. Sadly, he is dead, and I can not ask him anymore for a clarification of his teachings. But even so, I`m quite sure, that "Love for everyone." does not means - "Love for everyone christian, and hate towards everything else."

...

I really wish he was alive, so we could all just go and ask. It`s hard to ask Jesus in someone`s heart, when it`s occupied by devil.

[Guest shiloh357]

You want to be judged by Bible?

Fine. You are abominations. You promote slavery, stone for minitae transgressions against nonsensical rules, and cultivate xenophobic intolerance towards anyone not belonging to your circle - which intolerance comes as far as genocide.

Better now? This is ALL shown in Bible. Advices on how to sell own daughter to slavery, commandment to stone for anything resembling work on Saturday, description of slaying whole cities - women and children included, by DIRECT command of God.

You know as little or less about the Bible than you do about Christianity. Tell me, which modern Christian denominations are guilty of these things?

What I asked you to do is judge groups like the Westboro Baptists against the teachings of Christ to see if they actually qualify as "Christians" and I also stated all of Christianty's teachings should be measured against the teachings of Christ, that He is the plumline against which all Christians should be measured.

Instead, I turn my attention to most modern developments. And WHAT do we see? Same xenophoby, bigotry and intolerance? And you DARE to say I should judge you by Jesus?

As I asked before, which denominations are making slaves of people, stoning people for Sabbath violations, committing genocide? Which ones?

Jesus is a great philosopher, I agree with a lot of what he says.

Judging from your own words on this forum, you would agree with next to nothing of what He teaches. For one thing, Jesus did not offer Himself as a philosopher, so right off the bat the two of you would disagree on that point. Jesus offered Himself as the Son of God, and since you and He disagree on the existance of God, there is NO other of major substance upon which you would agree, because according to Jesus, your works should be motivated by a desire to glorify God. Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt. 5:16) Jesus teachings presuppose the existance of God and are based upon the assumption of God's existance, so you and He agree on next to nothing.

My beef is not with Jesus. My beef is with followers, who claim to follow the words of Jesus.

Yet... The voice is of Jesus, but hand is pillow-cased claw of Ku-Klux-Klan

Again, more baseless, unfair and ridiculous comparisons. You cannot seem to get away from such foolishness can you? Your position gets weaker by the post. All end up doing is showing that you really don't know what you are talking about.

If you ARE christians, show it, for crying out loud. You all do nothing but judge others, secure in your own delusion of righteousness, but when someone judges you, you get bent all out of shape.

What a load of tripe. Yeah, we are not perfect, but you cannot use our failures as some lame excuse to make all of us into klansmen or Westboro nuts. All you can do disparage all of us by dragging us in the mud and try to desparately to pretend that we are all out burn everyone at the stake. You are just a person who hates Christianity and you grasp at every ridiculous straw you can think of to make your flimsy case.

But even so, I`m quite sure, that "Love for everyone." does not means - "Love for everyone christian, and hate towards everything else."

Like I said, with the way you mischaracterize and bear false witness against us, you have no moral ground upon which to point a finger. You justify for your self the very sin you falsely accuse us of. You are nothing more than a two-bit, know-nothing atheist hypocrite. You incapable of rational, intellectual debate as clearly indicated by your posts. You are here with an agenda to harrass.

[Ishamael]

I`m pretty sure, that side observer would suggest I`m the one being harassed by you, actually.

Let`s try once again, alright? I`ll use simple words this time.

1) You said - "judge us by Bible". I can quote bible passages, which describe all that I`ve mentioned.

If that`s not how you want to be judged, you should be more careful with what you ask for.

2) Isn`t claiming "you`re weak, you`re weak" a first sign of lost argument?

So far, all what you say equates to - "Don`t judge us badly." and a load of semi-personal spam.

Please, try better.... Or lurk more.

3) I won`t discuss my agenda here. Make out of it what you wish. If you want to believe I`m here specifically to attack your beliefs, good luck. Don`t let your fingers get stuck between buttons, as you write your replies.

________________________________________

As for Jesus, and his teachings...

I`m sorry, but I can not discuss them with you anymore.

This is philosophical question, and it could not be discussed without recognising this fact. Since you prefer to treat what I say as personal attack on your convictions, I believe I will take my debate to elseone.

Though, I have to mention, that I really appreciate the irony. Atheist preaching Jesus-prescribed tolerance to christian. And getting accused of hypocrisy is just icing on the cake.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Ishamael

[Guest shiloh357]

I`m pretty sure, that side observer would suggest I`m the one being harassed by you, actually.

I am not harrassing you . I am correcting your misperceptions and mischaracterizations of Christianity, and your attempt to unfairly color Christinanity by those lame mischaracterizations.

1) You said - "judge us by Bible". I can quote bible passages, which describe all that I`ve mentioned.

If that`s not how you want to be judged, you should be more careful with what you ask for.

Yes, and I asked which denominations are out conducting genocide and slavery. Since you choose to characterize us by OT passages, I asked you which denominations are fulfilling those passages. Heretofore, you cannot produce any which demonstrates the fallacious nature of your assessment of the Christian faith. You are just throwing out anything you can to denigrate Christianity.

2) Isn`t claiming "you`re weak, you`re weak" a first sign of lost argument?

No, because you are the one making the assertions that require evidentiary support. My pointing out the weakness of your position is based upon any lack of corroborating evidence which you are responsible to provide to substantiate your claims. Your position amounts to claiming that we are all equal to Westboro, the Klan and any other member of the lowest common denominator you can find, yet you cannot produce one shred of evidence from mainline Christianity to justify your unfair allegations.

So far, all what you say equates to - "Don`t judge us badly." and a load of semi-personal spam.

What a bunch of nonsense. Nothing I said even comes close to that. My objection is that you are unwilling to use any standard that would actually be fair or objective. My point is that we should be judged fairly. That is something you are unwilling to do.

As for Jesus, and his teachings...

I`m sorry, but I can not discuss them with you anymore.

Well of course you cant. You don't know squat about Jesus' teachings as is evidenced by your posts. You are unqualified to debate about Christianity, Jesus or Bible since you ignorant about all three.

Since you prefer to treat what I say as personal attack on your convictions, I believe I will take my debate to elseone.

You would prefer to debate someone else who can't actually answer your baseless false charges, or someone who can't tear down your your silly attempt to make all Christians equall to the KKK or the Westboro nuts. You can take your debate to someone else, but I will be there to refute your assertions whether you respond to me or not. I will not let you disparage Christianity and run us all down unchallenged.

This is philosophical question, and it could not be discussed without recognising this fact

It is not philosophical at all.

Though, I have to mention, that I really appreciate the irony. Atheist preaching Jesus-prescribed tolerance to christian. And getting accused of hypocrisy is just icing on the cake.

No you have not preached Jesus-prescribed tolerance. All you have done is demonstrate your intolerance by refusing to judge modern Christianity after a fair and objective standard. Secondly, the charge of hypocrisy fits since you accuse Christians of being dishonest (among other things) but see nothing wrong with being dishonest about your assessment of Christianity. If you were honest, most of your allegations would not stand. I can see why you would feel the need to continue lying. Your lies and false accusations are all you possess when it comes your interaction with Christians.

[Ishamael]

Just what is fair and objective standard for you, then?

If you think I judge basing on unfair assumptions, go ahead and offer me a better base for my judgement. We`ll see, if it comes close to facts.

_________

Answering the "what denominations" question.

You are obviously fishing for an answer "none", are you? Alright, let`s take this for a fact. Now, we have a fact, that Bible offers suggestions, which are NOT fullfulled by christians. So.. How do I judge someone by Bible, if you do not even fullfill all of what it says?

How about writing down a list of what you all actually believe out of Bible, if some portions of it are not suitable anymore?

Wanna write Bible Lite? Toss out all the bunk, and see, what remains.

My assertions are dead-on, so far. Bible does contains what I said, does it not? Once again, if you really need, I will quote passages.

Lastly - yes, the question of Jesus is philosophical. I suggest to reread the definition of philosophy, and what it entails. You`ll see, that teology does belongs to philosophy.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just what is fair and objective standard for you, then?

If you think I judge basing on unfair assumptions, go ahead and offer me a better base for my judgement. We`ll see, if it comes close to facts.

If you want judge Christianity if you want to draw a fair assessment, then you need to judge Christians by teachings of the founder of Christianity. That is all I have been asking. I am sure you will find many places where we don't measure up to Christ. Judging us all by comparing us to Westboro, and bringing us all down to their level is NOT fair, and is certainly not objective. The standard I propose is the standard that would be used with any religious faith. However, you don't really know the Bible very well and are not qualified to stand as judge upon us.

Answering the "what denominations" question.

You are obviously fishing for an answer "none", are you? Alright, let`s take this for a fact. Now, we have a fact, that Bible offers suggestions, which are NOT fullfulled by christians. So.. How do I judge someone by Bible, if you do not even fullfill all of what it says?

How about writing down a list of what you all actually believe out of Bible, if some portions of it are not suitable anymore?

Wanna write Bible Lite? Toss out all the bunk, and see, what remains.

You are still not answering my question. My question is, what denominations of Christianity are committing genocide and putting people into slavery. Since you offered a bunch of OT verses against which to judge us, then the onus is on you to provide modern example of todays Churches who are committing the above-mentioned atrocities, or retract the false charge and apologize.

It is not question of what is or is not in the Bible. That is not the issue you and I are discussing. The issue is the veracity and validity of the standard you are applying to modern Christians.

Nearly two-thirds of the Bible was not written Christians, it was written to ancient Israel. Christians do not circumcize our sons on the 8th day because we were not commanded to do so. Nor, were we commanded to stay kosher. Not every commandment applies to every person. Even in OT days, some commandments only applied to priests, some only to women, some only applied to you if you were married and had children. You are only responsible for the parts that speak to your individual and particular situation in life. Many commandments only applied to certain people and then only at certain times in their lives.

My assertions are dead-on, so far. Bible does contains what I said, does it not? Once again, if you really need, I will quote passages.

That is not the issue. I am not debating over what the Bible says or does not say; what it contains or does not contain, that is an issue for a different thread. The issue here is your assessment of Christianity and the basis for that assessment.

Lastly - yes, the question of Jesus is philosophical.

Neither Jesus or the Bible present themselves as "philosophical." Jesus is presented as the Way, Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but by Him (John 14:6). Jesus does not allow Himself to be included in a pantheon of philosphers and religious leaders. He presents Himself as the only Savior of the world to exclusion of all other religious leaders, philophers, etc. Jesus presents Himself as One who will be Lord of all, or not Lord at all. He does not fit your "philosopher" mold.

[Ishamael]

Then you lied, when you said you want to be judged by Bible.

You wanted to be judged solely by New Testament, were you not?

I will not apologise for YOUR mistake.

______

Now, let me address your assertion.

NO. You do NOT deserve to be judged by Jesus. Not a single one of you measures up, and you admit that yourself.

With the same right I could demand to be judged by the God, in which image I`m ostencibly created by your faith.

I will praise Jesus on what he`s done - he deserves that. And I will praise those of you, who does adhere to the ways of Jesus.

But I will not judge you by Jesus. Judgement comes by the worst crime, not by the best achievement. This is the way your God judged - it`s ought to be good enough for you.

For thou art all sinners. Yet some of you take pride in that, and tout that as their shield. Hide thy sins and renounce them, if you do not want to be judged by them.

Do not judge, lest you be judged. Thou hast judged me, by my worst sins you know - so thus will be done by me onto you.

[Guest shiloh357]

Then you lied, when you said you want to be judged by Bible.

You wanted to be judged solely by New Testament, were you not?

I will not apologise for YOUR mistake.

I have been consistent in stating exactly what I meant, and I have been consistent in stating Christians must be judged by the teachings of Christ. As for the rest of the Bible, simply accusing us slavery, genocide, etc. does not qualify as "judging us by the Bible." Again, the standard has been proposed ad nauseum, but you prefer to find a different standard than anything that would amount to fairness and objectivety since it would limit your ability to throw around scirptures about slavery in the irresponsible and illinformed manner that those of your ilk are used to doing.

Now, let me address your assertion.

NO. You do NOT deserve to be judged by Jesus. Not a single one of you measures up, and you admit that yourself.

With the same right I could demand to be judged by the God, in which image I`m ostencibly created by your faith.

I did not say to be judged by Jesus, but by the teachings of Jesus. No one can live up to the life that Jesus lived, because Jesus was sinless. My contention is that Jesus' teachings are the foundation of our faith, and the claims of Christ and the New Testament are the starting point for any assessment of the Christian faith. If you are not willing to operate by that standard, then you are disqualifed from holding any assessment that should be viewed as credible or trustworthy.

Judgement comes by the worst crime, not by the best achievement. This is the way your God judged - it`s ought to be good enough for you.

No, judgement is based upon a consistent, and reliable standard. Don't speak to me of God. You don't know Him, or anything about Him. You have nothing to say about God that can be taken seriously or viewed as credible. You have already proven your lack of trustworthyiness in debate. You do not possess the qualifications to instruct me about God.

Do not judge, lest you be judged. Thou hast judged me, by my worst sins you know - so thus will be done by me onto you.

Wha??? Are you on medication? What in the world does that mean?