1 Timothy 1:3 questions

[Neopatriarch]

Here's the verse:

1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

The questions are: (1) are these certain person's Christians, backsliders, or lost people? (2) Are they teaching heresy or something else?

-Neopatriarch

[OopsMartin]

Here's the verse:

1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

The questions are: (1) are these certain person's Christians, backsliders, or lost people? (2) Are they teaching heresy or something else?

-Neopatriarch

I don't think it's that difficult. At first glance one might think it is anyone. However, in verse 20 we see that Hymenaeus and Alexander, of whom we can clearly see were either backsliders or lost people, were named and delivered to Satan. Since the certain persons in vs. 3 were teaching wrong doctrine, but teaching in a Christian setting (vs. 4-7), it is likely they were NOT of the same "quality as Hymenaeus and Alexander or they also would have been named and delivered to Satan. There is an obvious difference between those Christians who are mislead, trying to be teachers but unlearned, and those portraying Christianity but blaspheming God in their teaching.

[Neopatriarch]

I don't think it's that difficult. At first glance one might think it is anyone. However, in verse 20 we see that Hymenaeus and Alexander, of whom we can clearly see were either backsliders or lost people, were named and delivered to Satan.

Yes. Paul has taken care of Hymenaeus and Alexander personally. I suspect Hymenaeus and Alexander were lost.

Since the certain persons in vs. 3 were teaching wrong doctrine, but teaching in a Christian setting (vs. 4-7), it is likely they were NOT of the same "quality as Hymenaeus and Alexander or they also would have been named and delivered to Satan.

According to NET Bible Notes on verse 18 "This charge refers to the task Paul described to Timothy in vv. 3-7 above." (see NET Bible Notes) The word for "charge" is parangelia in 1:18, but it hearkens back to verse 1:3, which uses the verbal form of parangelia, and 1:5, which uses parangelia. And compare 1:5 with 1:19:

1 Timothy 1:5 ". . . a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these . . ."

1 Timothy 1:19 ". . . holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some . . . "

Paul seems to be repeating the same idea in these verses. In both cases the outcome of rejecting a good conscience and sincere faith is quite bad. This leads me to think that Hymenaeus and Alexander are simply two false teachers that Paul personally handled. These false teachers are very much like those in 1 Timothy 1:3 and 7. Perhaps they were the leaders of Paul's opposition.

There is an obvious difference between those Christians who are mislead, trying to be teachers but unlearned, and those portraying Christianity but blaspheming God in their teaching.

Okay. Are the false teachers in 1:3 and 7 just unlearned, mislead teachers or are they blaspheming God? Or are they unlearned, mislead, and blaspheming God. That seems possible too. I don't want make a distinction between two different types of false teachers where Paul does not, and it does not seem that he is making such a distinction in 1 Timothy 1.

-Neopatriarch

[OopsMartin]

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia

[Neopatriarch]

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia

[OopsMartin]

I'm not sure what your point is. You've emphasized that some are giving heed to fables and endless genealogies rather than godly edification which is in faith, and I have no problem with this. I would go further and say the opponents' aberrant teaching is connected with an unlawful use of the law (v 8). The law is supposed to lead us to Christ:

The opponents would be Hymenaeus and Alexander who went into aberrant teaching and blasphemed. There is a difference even today with those who stray from proper teaching and godly edification and those who teach against Christ. Those who stray, and there are many, we discuss and expound Scriptures hoping to bring them in line with proper interpreting of Scriptures.

Apparently, these false teachers were not using the law lawfully, but using it in a way that was divisive.

Agreed. And we have much of that in Christian circles today. But I wouldn

[Neopatriarch]

And have a change of heart. Are you assuming these people are Christian leaders that have no understanding or are they nonChristian opponents of Paul who have no understanding?

Yes, and have a change of heart which can only come from rightly reading Scriptures. They were Christians. Even Hymenaeus were described as having a faith in which they destroyed resulting in blasphemy.

In verse 5 Paul is concerned with having a sincere faith. You can have a faith that isn't saving faith. Look at the parable of the soils, for example, Luke 8:

Luke 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

And 1 John 2:19 is pretty clear that not everyone in the community of believers is part of them:

John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Jesus shows that he knows not everyone is a true believer as well:

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

Also

John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him,

[firehill]

This doesn't necessarily mean that they started out as true believers. In fact, it doesn't have to mean that they ever had the proper aim in the first place. They may have seen what was required and decided to reject that goal from the very start.

Of course, I'm not saying there is no hope for these people. Paul shares his own example in 1 Timothy 1:12-17 where he was a nonChristian, but God showed him mercy.

-Neopatriarch

Timothy 1:5 ". . . a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these . . ."

1 Timothy 1:19 ". . . holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some . . . "

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19HOLDING on to FAITH and a GOOD CONSCIENCE. SOME have REJECTED these and so have SHIPWRECKED their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

You've brought up good points and questions, Neo, though thus far, my questioning to you would be, did Timothy, who Paul addresses as 'my son', start out as a true believer? And I ask because, he by following the instruction given him by Paul, in keeping with the prophecies made about him, MAY HOLD ONTO FAITH and a GOOD CONSCIENSE.

I don't understand this point of yours. Whonos where any 'starts' at?

Paul seems to be repeating the same idea in these verses. In both cases the outcome of rejecting a good conscience and sincere faith is quite bad.

I agree that Paul seems to be repeating the same idea. Paul, though encouraged Timothy to 'fight the good fight' in keeping with the prophecies once made about him by giving him instruction.

[Neopatriarch]

You've brought up good points and questions, Neo, though thus far, my questioning to you would be, did Timothy, who Paul addresses as 'my son', start out as a true believer? And I ask because, he by following the instruction given him by Paul, in keeping with the prophecies made about him, MAY HOLD ONTO FAITH and a GOOD CONSCIENSE.

My thinking behind this was that maybe some might think that 1 Timothy 1 is dealing with apostasizing Christians so they start as Christians and become nonChristians. I don't think that sort of thing happens. Of course, in another sense, everyone starts out as a sinner, but that is not what I meant.

As for Timothy, yes, he was a true believer. Nevertheless, Paul may be giving him a warning so that he perseveres in the faith, which isn't to say that Timothy wouldn't persevere, the warning would be part of the means to Timothy's perseverance, assuming he takes it seriously.

-Neopatriarch

[inhistime]

You've brought up good points and questions, Neo, though thus far, my questioning to you would be, did Timothy, who Paul addresses as 'my son', start out as a true believer? And I ask because, he by following the instruction given him by Paul, in keeping with the prophecies made about him, MAY HOLD ONTO FAITH and a GOOD CONSCIENSE.

My thinking behind this was that maybe some might think that 1 Timothy 1 is dealing with apostasizing Christians so they start as Christians and become nonChristians. I don't think that sort of thing happens. Of course, in another sense, everyone starts out as a sinner, but that is not what I meant.

As for Timothy, yes, he was a true believer. Nevertheless, Paul may be giving him a warning so that he perseveres in the faith, which isn't to say that Timothy wouldn't persevere, the warning would be part of the means to Timothy's perseverance, assuming he takes it seriously.

-Neopatriarch

Yes, there are many warnings in scripture about persevering and also about deviating from the truth and following error. Some error cause one to be distracted and unfruitful. Some error if fully embraced causes some to reject the faith. Whether these were true believers or not to begin with is not the point. The point is that false belief hurts everyone.

Paul draws the sword and cuts a line down the middle to separate those who have been veering off the path and those who have turned their backs on the truth. Those who turn their backs on the truth are those who will deny the Master who bought them (2 Peter 2:1). Those who do that are on the path of destruction and Paul never recommends that they sit and learn. Why? Because their heart has been hardened. There is no turning back when the only plan of salvation has been rejected and the only Savior has been spurned.

Have you ever followed false doctrine? I have. When I gave my life back to the Lord after having spent some of my teenage years wanting to live my own life my own way, I was passionate for Christ and devoured everything on Christianity. It took me a few years to become discerning and to realize that not everyone who claims to be Christian is teaching correct doctrine. Did that make me a heretic because I followed some false teachers for awhile? No, it made me deceived. But God's grace on my life was amazing and he has brought me to the place of helping others come out of deception. God certainly does measure the motives of the heart. He knew that my motive was to learn everything I could about him and he knew that I loved him with all my heart.

How about you? Have you ever believed in anything that was wrong? Did Jesus treat you gently, or did he cast you out of the church as a heretic?

Paul had a shepherd's heart and he took his shepherd's crook and divided between those who knew the truth yet they promoted errors and taught lies. He divided them from those who were believing and teaching error because of their own ignorance. My entire ministry is dealing with those who have been deceived. Paul too had been deceived and his compassion comes out when he explains that he isn't stopping the teaching of the false teachers because he is being mean. He is doing it out of a spirit of love.

Edited July 7, 2007 by inhistime