Were there 2 liars at the fall or just 1?

[firehill]

Ok..well at this I will bow out. I really cant even consider this issue something secondary in terms of importance so I cant go further. What I will ponder though is what you said concerning the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. That is interesting. I may one day read this thread, and see if some light is shed. But till then I pray God gives the answers we all need concerning His Kingdom.

Well thanks for joining. Hopefully you will come back and read the thread. There are very interesting things that God says throughout the bible. Yes, I believe he will provide those answers for those who search for them.

[firehill]

Honestly, I have not read this thread in full. What I will say is this. I dont feel Eve lied or added to. What it does look like is progression. We know from later revelaton in the Bible that death made man in thier fallen state unclean. What happen when Eve touched death...she took it in. For real I am just talking so I may get some 's and 's and maybe a few 's. We can say that is a fact that when man touched the fruit they died for they also took it in.

Now I will also add this. Eve did not get the command as Adam did, unless it was later reveal to her by God AFTER He formed her. We do well to notice that Eve was formed after the command was given, as recorded in Chap 2 of Gen. I can't say the God did not tell her, but I am not so blind as to say Adam did not instruct his wife in God's desires.

Another fine example of how God reveals truth in a story. Had Genesis made it clear that God DID tell Eve the same thing as Adam, and Eve STILL got it wrong, all blame would justifiably go on Eve for being the one who, clearly, messes everything up.

Fortunately for Eve, we cannot say that, with Scriptural accuracy, or that it was not Adam who misquoted God when he explained it to Eve.

Genesis did make it clear in 1:29 that God told Eve not to eat of the tree. Do you know why the blame wasn't put on Eve? Why didn't God ask her why she misquoted him? How come she is not held accountable for adding to God's word anywhere in the entire bible? Do you think that isn't a serious matter to God? Who messed everything up? What caused the mess? Was it REBELLION or a state of deception? Did not Adam's sin (rebellion) bring sin into the world? Eve didn't rebel like Adam did. She was deceived therefore she was not held accountable.

[Guest lnj]

Is one not accountable for one's actions if one is misled?- which being deceived is.

This opens the way for palming off wrong/bad decisions into the misled argument. If one is deceived and "unaware', then they are not accountable- so to speak. The problem with Eve was, she KNEW what the facts were but satan was cunning and twisted the Truth, which made her interperet it differently. If she had consulted Adam and it was discussed, would the outcome have been different? But, ultimately a choice was made by Eve and history took a nasty turn.

[None]

Honestly, I have not read this thread in full. What I will say is this. I dont feel Eve lied or added to. What it does look like is progression. We know from later revelaton in the Bible that death made man in thier fallen state unclean. What happen when Eve touched death...she took it in. For real I am just talking so I may get some 's and 's and maybe a few 's. We can say that is a fact that when man touched the fruit they died for they also took it in.

Now I will also add this. Eve did not get the command as Adam did, unless it was later reveal to her by God AFTER He formed her. We do well to notice that Eve was formed after the command was given, as recorded in Chap 2 of Gen. I can't say the God did not tell her, but I am not so blind as to say Adam did not instruct his wife in God's desires.

Another fine example of how God reveals truth in a story. Had Genesis made it clear that God DID tell Eve the same thing as Adam, and Eve STILL got it wrong, all blame would justifiably go on Eve for being the one who, clearly, messes everything up.

Fortunately for Eve, we cannot say that, with Scriptural accuracy, or that it was not Adam who misquoted God when he explained it to Eve.

Genesis did make it clear in 1:29 that God told Eve not to eat of the tree. Do you know why the blame wasn't put on Eve? Why didn't God ask her why she misquoted him? How come she is not held accountable for adding to God's word anywhere in the entire bible? Do you think that isn't a serious matter to God? Who messed everything up? What caused the mess? Was it REBELLION or a state of deception? Did not Adam's sin (rebellion) bring sin into the world? Eve didn't rebel like Adam did. She was deceived therefore she was not held accountable.

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are chronologically different and it's widely debated whether or not some of chapter 1 was written in parable form. That's a whole other topic, though, one I wouldn't mind reading into one day.

I do believe you are correct that Eve was mislead, not acting in rebellion. It wasn't her fault. I, personally, think that she received second-hand information, which played a role in her second-guessing what she believed to be God's intentions. But that is just my opinion.

Genesis 1 may very well have been chronologically factual and not a hyperbole version of the events of the garden, as well as creation. I never found that to be very important in my faith walk with Christ, only unimportant details(though often relevent to much larger truths).

[firehill]

Is one not accountable for one's actions if one is misled?- which being deceived is.

Yes. Was Eve not held accountable for what she did? Did not God hold her accountable by asking her, 'What is this you have done?' He certainly did not hold Adam accountable for what she had done.

This opens the way for palming off wrong/bad decisions into the misled argument.

What's the mislead argument? I've gathered that it is for dishonest persons. It opens up nothing of the sort. If people want to be dishonest by palming off wrong decisions by claiming, 'I've been deceived' then they will be accountable for it.

If one is deceived and "unaware', then they are not accountable- so to speak.

One is always accountable for their actions. See, Adam was accountable for brinning sin into the world because he SINNED. (outright rebelled against God). Eve was not accountable for bringing sin into the world because she FELL INTO SIN (see Paul's words in 1 Tim 2), she did not rebel as Adam did. There is a difference between falling into sin and outright rebellion, sinning.

The problem with Eve was, she KNEW what the facts were

Yes, she did.

but satan was cunning and twisted the Truth,

Yes, he did. He told her that she wouldn't die (which God said she would if she ate) and that it would make her wise.

which made her interperet it differently.

Do you wonder why Adam didn't believe the serpent ('which would have made him interpret it differently') whereas the woman was deceived?

If she had consulted Adam and it was discussed, would the outcome have been different?

If either of the two had consulted the other the outcome could have been different. Adam who wasn't deceived didn't speak up WHEN she was deceived (saw that the fruit was good for food and to make her wise). Why didn't he speak to her about it when she was the deceived one?

But, ultimately a choice was made by Eve and history took a nasty turn.

Ultimately because Adam rebelled sin entered the world. It did not enter the world through one's having been deceived, but rather outright rebellion which is different from a state of deception.

[firehill]

I do believe you are correct that Eve was mislead, not acting in rebellion. It wasn't her fault. I, personally, think that she received second-hand information, which played a role in her second-guessing what she believed to be God's intentions. But that is just my opinion.

That's fine being your opinion but if you read the entire thread carefuly it is explained very well that there is NO reason to question that she misquoted God. Therefore there is no reason to expressly believe that she did not receive the command from God. I would guess that they spoke about it at least some to eachother. Why not. But guesses I'm not concerned with. Besides, Genesis 1:29 shows that they both received the prohibition from God which means that there is no reason why God would not have told her exactly what she said he did in Genesis 3. I'll bring up OopsMartin's post in one second which explained very well why we can't just assume she added to God's word. I've not seen a rebuttal to his post.

Adam got to see and experience the difference between creation and God. God made animals in front of him. Therefore Adam didn't fall for or wasn't deceived into believing 'you will become like God'.

[firehill]

No, either position requires speculation. All we have is an actual quote from God, and what Eve says God said.

Well, if you look at it that way all we have is what Moses says God said and what Moses says Eve says that God said.

Either we believe what it says or anyone COULD be lying or making a mistake. How do we know they are lying or not? Scripture will tell us what is important to know. If it is not important then we cannot be building important doctrines on facts that don't exist.

There is no evidence ANYWHERE in Scripture that would lend support to an idea that Eve was lying. That is from the time that the first book was written in approximately 1470 B.C. and through all the major and minor prophets and after the last letter was written which composes the NT, in which NOT ONE MENTION is made to indicate that anyone anointed of God said that Eve was lying. Surely one of the prophets of old would have pointed out such a foundationally important piece of information.

Believing Eve requires no speculation. It may cause us to wonder why she was told more, in that we can speculate.

Except that we have an actual quote from God that omits what Eve said. Moses included the difference. I have no problem believing that Eve said what she did. What is not so clear is why she said it. You are attemptiing to fill in the blanks without textual support (as you are accusing those who say Eve was lying do). Neither side has scriptural support. All we have is what God said directly, and what Eve reported He said. They are different.

Erich, I'm not accusing anyone. I'm stating what I believe to be true on the issue as are you. We disagree. We are allowed to. Let's not get in a huff.

They are different. that is one fact we can agree upon. Now the question is what to make of the difference, if anything.

Why do you make the assumption that Eve is lying? What support in Scripture do you have for NOT taking what Eve is saying as plain fact which is the normal first response? The fact of difference does not require an assumption of lying. This was my point by noting other Biblical differences. The difference itself does not point us toward a negative. We need something else to point us in that direction. Without an impetus to move us away from plain fact, we should stay in plain fact. Make any more sense?

Here's the post of oopsmartin I was refering to. It was a point I wanted to bring out but he got to it first!

[OopsMartin]

If the following verse, Genesis 1:29, is true that God gave them EVERY tree for food that has fruit with seed in it, and we know there was a prohibition on the tree of knowledge of good and evil therefore the tree they were prohibited from eating couldn't have had fruit with seed in it. Otherwise God would not have said I give you EVERY tree THAT HAS fruit with seed in it.

Therefore this verse too along with the woman's testimony shows that God did prohibit BOTH from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said, "I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Never thought of that before. Thanks.

[firehill]

If the following verse, Genesis 1:29, is true that God gave them EVERY tree for food that has fruit with seed in it, and we know there was a prohibition on the tree of knowledge of good and evil therefore the tree they were prohibited from eating couldn't have had fruit with seed in it. Otherwise God would not have said I give you EVERY tree THAT HAS fruit with seed in it.

Therefore this verse too along with the woman's testimony shows that God did prohibit BOTH from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said, "I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Never thought of that before. Thanks.

Your welcome. I'm just relaying what I've learned.

[firehill]

This thread regarding what Eve said to satan reminds me of the movie A Few Good Men. One of the soldiers who was being charged with murder, Downey (I think) said that his commanding officer gave him an order to perform a code red on another soldier. That's what he stated.

The problem here is with your analogy. Eve didn't say that Adam told her but rather that God did whereas in your analogy Downey or whoever said that his commanding officer (I'll assume you insert Adam there over Eve) ave him an order. The anaolgy you gave then breaks down. See:

That's what he confirmed. That's what he testified to under oath. Turns out, he didn't actually hear this command from the said commanding officer.

The woman in the first place never testified that she heard from Adam but rather she gave her testimoiny that she heard form God. Eve didn't lie which makes your analogy not comparable.

He heard it from a person directly above rank from him.

There was no rank above her. She quoted God. Can you provide scriptiure that shows that she had rank above her?

It didn't matter to him that he didn't actually hear the words from the commanding officer.

It mattered to Eve who she heard the command from because she quoted God not Adam.

He heard the words from the one directly above him, telling him the commanding officer said the words. Hearing the command from the one directly above him was the exact same thing as hearing the command from his commanding officer. He truly didn't differentiate between the two.

I don't know why the woman would not differientiate between Adam and God.

Could the same thing be true with God ordering Adam and Adam ordering Eve ? She said, "God said...", but that may not necessarily mean she HEARD it from God.

Could it be true? Only if the context supports it. Can you provide the context?

And, as someone has pointed out, what is the point of this question? Does it really matter whether Eve was an idiot or whether she lied?

Does it matter to you that God would have made an idiot IN HIS IMAGE or not? Does it matter to you if one is reprimanded for adding to God's word or not? Eve surely wasn't. What does that mean to you? Do you think that Adam added to God's word and told Eve not to touch the fruit? If so, would it matter to you if Adam added to God's word?

Will it truly benefit anyone, anywhere--saved or nonsaved--to know the answer to this question? Or is it simply an interesting topic to know another's point of view?

What are the benefits of this thread? The whole reason why we were given a redemeer in the first place is because Adam rebelled whereas Eve was deceived thereby she fell into sin. Does this not matter? Yet, some claim that a part of Eve's deception was her adding to God's word, which she did not do. Since she didn't add to God's word yet STILL fell into sin through deception, then I wonder how many of us do the very same thing. Adam had a relationship and experience with God before she was created, he learned the difference between God and God's creation which protected him from believeing the serpent's lie that he would be like God or be deceived. I'd say that's pretty important, having a relationship with God for protection, and also that just as Paul warned some not to be deceived as Eve was so should we learn from her mistake.