Daniel's Seventy Weeks and The Seven Year Tribulation

[Kenna Frye]

I meant beginning, sorry....and No I am not a preterist.

Some questions that need to be clarified.

[Retrobyter]

does the antichrist make a peace treaty with israel for seven years and then breaks it three and one half year

...

what's holding up the antichrist, if you don't believe in the pre-trib. rapture? why has'nt he appeared already? what's he waiting for? we need peace in the middle east, where is he?s later?

Shalom, chin.

You are asking the right questions. These are the point of view from the pre-, post-, mid- and partial rapture positions. There is NOT a PERSON who is called the "antichrist" who makes the "peace treaty" with Isra'el and breaks it; it is our Lord Yeshua` who makes a COVENANT with Isra'el as YHVH's Messiah to be King promised in many prophecies. They rejected Him, so HE breaks the covenant and curses them until they say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" The first 3-1/2 years are His "earthly ministry" during the First Advent.

The "antichrist" is NOT being "held up"; the SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of antichrist has been on the earth since the days of the Apostles. "He" won't be showing up at all. While we do need peace in the Middle East, they will be saying "'Peace (Shalom)! Peace (Shalom)!' when there is no peace!" Peace will not exist until haSar Shalom, the Prince of Peace, comes back to reign. When we are instructed to pray for the peace of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), we will only find that fulfillment by asking the Father for the return of Yeshua`, haSar Shalom!

(By the way, what do the names "Sarah," "Isra'el," and now "haSar Shalom" have in common? All have the Hebrew word "Sar" in them. "Sarah," the feminine form of the word "Sar," means "Princess," and "Isra'el" means "Prince with God" where "'el" means "God." Remember, the Hebrew language has no vowels. The "S-R" [actually "sin-resh," Strong's 8269] combination is the word for "prince.")

Does this help answer your questions? See, I used to be not only premillennial but also pretribulational rapturist, like Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins are, but can no longer in good conscience subscribe to that position.

Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

The second coming of Christ is the future and The New Jerusalem is future.....

A quick summary.... The only reason why I wrote this message was because too many people throw Antichrist into it and use it as the interpretation. I am saying that this prophecy of the seventy weeks has absolutely nothing to do with Antichrist. The whole things simply deals with the first coming of Jesus and Israel rejecting him and then the Gospel has to be taken to the Gentiles. Israel is not replaced by the gentiles, thats why it says that they could be grafted back in if they choose to follow christ. If you choose to follow Christ, you are not a part of literal Israel, The focus is not it anymore......you are a part of Spiritual Israel! Jew and Gentile alike! This whole prophecy was just dealing with who is going to spread the word about Christ, that's all.....Simply put, God chose the Jews, they didn't do it, then he used Paul and turned to the Gentiles. Thats all! No Antichrist, no seven year trib, No secret rapture, no rebuilding of the third temple or anything like that because these verse Daniel 9:24-27 are the foundation for all those beliefs in Futurism.

I agree with Cobalt1959 except that I also take issue with the above red-highlighted text. The set "those who follow Christ" is a SUBSET of "those who are part of literal Isra'el." Yeshua` will LITERALLY be the King of Isra'el!!! THAT'S MY country! I know that it doesn't exist in its final form, yet, but I'd rather be a part of the country where prophecies are coming true DAILY rather than a country that's sinking into moral decay and disrepute among the nations. Fortunately, we have a president who is not afraid of standing for what he believes, but if the leadership changes (and it probably will) how fast will the decline be now? I think we've probably crossed the 45-degree point and we're now on a very slippery slope!

EXPECT THE KING!

Retrobyter

[Rhonda Lou]

There is NOT a PERSON who is called the "antichrist" who makes the "peace treaty" with Isra'el and breaks it; it is our Lord Yeshua` who makes a COVENANT with Isra'el as YHVH's Messiah to be King promised in many prophecies. They rejected Him, so HE breaks the covenant and curses them until they say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" The first 3-1/2 years are His "earthly ministry" during the First Advent.

The "antichrist" is NOT being "held up"; the SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of antichrist has been on the earth since the days of the Apostles. "He" won't be showing up at all. .

Retrobyter

The main question I have about your theory about the man in Daniel 9:27 who confirms a covenant and then breaks it being Jesus, is that about breaking the covenant, Daniel 9:27 says, "and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured over the one who makes desolate." This suggests to me that the breaker of the covenant will cause desolations until they are poured over him. I can't see Jesus doing this, and if He does, what does "until they are poured over him" mean? Also, Jesus comments on this verse in Matthew 24:15-16: "Therefore when you see the amonination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." I don't understand how this would fit in if the Messiah is the one spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

Also, you are absolutely correct in saying that the Spirit of antichrist has been on earth since the days of the apostles. John comments on just this fact in 1 John 2:18-19: Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. Verse 22 identifies this spirit this way: "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the son." This is the spirit of Antichrist, and it is prevelant today.

But, I believe that the spirit will culminate in one person because 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says, "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION." To me, this suggests a single person and it says "the" not "a" here which suggests a particular single person. Or is there something I'm missing?

[Retrobyter]

"He breaks His covenant." ??

God breaks His own berith?

I think not ...

shalom aleichem

shlomo ben david

Shalom, Shlomo! (Redundant?)

Sorry, you're right. No, not God. God will not "break His covenant." That's not what I meant. Yeshua` "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation." (Dan. 9:27, KJV) Just as He did in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matt 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

Thanks. I'll try to be more careful in my wording. Shalom aleichem.

Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

There is NOT a PERSON who is called the "antichrist" who makes the "peace treaty" with Isra'el and breaks it; it is our Lord Yeshua` who makes a COVENANT with Isra'el as YHVH's Messiah to be King promised in many prophecies. They rejected Him, so HE breaks the covenant and curses them until they say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" The first 3-1/2 years are His "earthly ministry" during the First Advent.

The "antichrist" is NOT being "held up"; the SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of antichrist has been on the earth since the days of the Apostles. "He" won't be showing up at all. .

Retrobyter

The main question I have about your theory about the man in Daniel 9:27 who confirms a covenant and then breaks it being Jesus, is that about breaking the covenant, Daniel 9:27 says, "and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured over the one who makes desolate." This suggests to me that the breaker of the covenant will cause desolations until they are poured over him. I can't see Jesus doing this, and if He does, what does "until they are poured over him" mean? Also, Jesus comments on this verse in Matthew 24:15-16: "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." I don't understand how this would fit in if the Messiah is the one spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

Also, you are absolutely correct in saying that the Spirit of antichrist has been on earth since the days of the apostles. John comments on just this fact in 1 John 2:18-19: Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. Verse 22 identifies this spirit this way: "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the son." This is the spirit of Antichrist, and it is prevelant today.

But, I believe that the spirit will culminate in one person because 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says, "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION." To me, this suggests a single person and it says "the" not "a" here which suggests a particular single person. Or is there something I'm missing?

Shalom, Rhonda Lou.

Okay. Let's take this a step at a time. First, the interpretation of Dani'el 9:24-27 is VERY questionable. You see, even in Hebrew a pronoun cannot use the object of a prepositional phrase as its antecedent. Therefore, the antecedent of "he" in verse 27 CANNOT refer to the "prince that shall come" in verse 26. It MUST refer to the "Messiah" in verse 26 as its antecedent!

Second, as I've already recinded to Shlomo, Yeshua` does not BREAK the covenant. He MAKES the covenant (b'rit) but in the middle of the week he causes the sacrifice and the grain-offering to cease. This was accomplished in the tearing of the veil both in the Temple and in the veil of His flesh. (Matt. 27:50-53 and Heb. 10:5-20)

Matt 27:50-53

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

KJV

Heb 10:5-20

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

KJV

BUT, for the "overspreading of abominations," He shall MAKE it desolate until the consummation, the wrapping-it-up, after the wars and the desolations decreed upon Isra'el are over and that desolation determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Third, the "desolate" at the end of verse 27 is not the "desolator" (the "one who makes desolate") but the ones MADE desolate (v'nech'ratsah titakh `al-shomeim)!

Fourth, Matt. 24:15-16 uses the word Greek word hestos translated "stand." This word comes from ...

NT:2476

histemi (his'-tay-mee); a prolonged form of a primary stao (stah'-o) (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):

KJV - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Note that this word could have been translated other ways: "set up," "established," or just "present." When the translator used the nearest translation for the word, "stand," he introduced the assumption that this verse refers to a person, but we really don't know that from this passage! A column could "stand" (hestos) in the Holy Place, too. The abomination is the rejection of the Messiah. Its result is the desolation that such rejection brought on the nation.

Hope this begins to clear away the confusion.

Retrobyter

[Rhonda Lou]

I think our posts got crossed. At the time I wrote my post, your clarification that Jesus did not break the covenant was not posted on my computer. I apologize for that. I began writing mine at 8:49, yours was at 8:59. They crossed. Sorry.

I do not know much about Hebrew/Greek grammar, but I do agree with you that the "he" in verse 27 is not the same "he" as is in verse 26. I believe that the "prince that shll come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" refers to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Verse 26 ends with "and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." I agree with you that desolations have occurred in Israel until in 1948 when the nations was granted "nation" status by the United Nations. Then, another "he" comes onto the scene.

As for the rest of what you said, I believe I understand what you are trying to say: that Jesus makes the convenant with many (but what exactly is the covenant made after the events of verses 24-26 -- or what do you see as the timing of verse 27?). At any rate, halfway through the covenant, he causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease (the veil to be torn down). Because of the abominations taking place, he shall make Israel desolate until the consumation (presumably the Marriage Supper), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel). I think that is what you are saying.

As for Matthew 24:15-16, you mentioned that the abominations which stand could mean something other than a person, like a column, or something. I've never really associated the abominations with a person, but as something done by a person in the Temple. When this act was done, whatever this particular abomination is, then the people are to flee. As I understand it, you feel this particular abomination was the rejection of Christ, but that rejection occurred before His death. He did wreak havoc on the temple twice in His ministry). If the rejection was His death, then there were over 30 years for the people to flee between His death and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. The passage in Matthew sounds like the act of abomination is a signal for people to flee immediately, without even going home to pack.

I guess I just still believe that the rest of the verses were literal years, so the final week is as well, though there is, as you say, a period of desolations between the destruction of Israel and the final week. In Daniel 7:25, and in Revelation 11, 12 and 13, it speaks of 42 months, 1260 days, and time, time and half a time (which all equal out to a literal 3 1/2 year period). It uses the terms for the first half while the temple is measured, the two witnesses preach, and the "little horn" speaks blasphemies against God. It is used of the final 3 1/2 years when Israel is persecuted, along with the saints. It is spoken of so many times in such literal terms that I see that as this week.

I thank you for taking the time to respond in much detail. Although our interpretations of Daniel 9:27 seem to differ, I respect your love for Jesus, and believe that we share that in common -- and this love is of a much stronger importance than our interpretations of Daniel 9:24-27. We both look for the same thing: Jesus' return, whether it is at the Rapture or at the Second Coming. But I thank you for sharing your interpretation with me.

[Retrobyter]

I think our posts got crossed. At the time I wrote my post, your clarification that Jesus did not break the covenant was not posted on my computer. I apologize for that. I began writing mine at 8:49, yours was at 8:59. They crossed. Sorry.

I do not know much about Hebrew/Greek grammar, but I do agree with you that the "he" in verse 27 is not the same "he" as is in verse 26. I believe that the "prince that shll come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" refers to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Verse 26 ends with "and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." I agree with you that desolations have occurred in Israel until in 1948 when the nations was granted "nation" status by the United Nations. Then, another "he" comes onto the scene.

As for the rest of what you said, I believe I understand what you are trying to say: that Jesus makes the convenant with many (but what exactly is the covenant made after the events of verses 24-26 -- or what do you see as the timing of verse 27?). At any rate, halfway through the covenant, he causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease (the veil to be torn down). Because of the abominations taking place, he shall make Israel desolate until the consumation (presumably the Marriage Supper), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel). I think that is what you are saying.

As for Matthew 24:15-16, you mentioned that the abominations which stand could mean something other than a person, like a column, or something. I've never really associated the abominations with a person, but as something done by a person in the Temple. When this act was done, whatever this particular abomination is, then the people are to flee. As I understand it, you feel this particular abomination was the rejection of Christ, but that rejection occurred before His death. He did wreak havoc on the temple twice in His ministry). If the rejection was His death, then there were over 30 years for the people to flee between His death and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. The passage in Matthew sounds like the act of abomination is a signal for people to flee immediately, without even going home to pack.

I guess I just still believe that the rest of the verses were literal years, so the final week is as well, though there is, as you say, a period of desolations between the destruction of Israel and the final week. In Daniel 7:25, and in Revelation 11, 12 and 13, it speaks of 42 months, 1260 days, and time, time and half a time (which all equal out to a literal 3 1/2 year period). It uses the terms for the first half while the temple is measured, the two witnesses preach, and the "little horn" speaks blasphemies against God. It is used of the final 3 1/2 years when Israel is persecuted, along with the saints. It is spoken of so many times in such literal terms that I see that as this week.

I thank you for taking the time to respond in much detail. Although our interpretations of Daniel 9:27 seem to differ, I respect your love for Jesus, and believe that we share that in common -- and this love is of a much stronger importance than our interpretations of Daniel 9:24-27. We both look for the same thing: Jesus' return, whether it is at the Rapture or at the Second Coming. But I thank you for sharing your interpretation with me.

Shabbat shalom, Rhonda Lou!

Three things (maybe four?) I feel I need to clarify:

First, I believe that the REAL abominations that made Isra'el desolate for so long was the very ACT OF THEIR REJECTION OF YESHUA` AS THEIR KING!

Second, the flood (Hebrew: shetef) has not yet occurred; however, we are told in Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse...

Luke 21:24-27

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

KJV

Now, granted, the majority of verse 24, I believe, was fulfilled in (or around) 70 A.D., but the phrase "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is when a gap of almost 2000 years comes in. After this phrase, the rest of this is not addressed directly to His talmidim (His disciples): "then shall THEY see the Son of man..." and part of this future view contains the "flood" of Dani'el 9: "the sea and the waves roaring." Furthermore, Revelation also talks of such an event in Rev. 8:8-9 and Rev. 12:12-17:

Rev 8:8-9

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

KJV

Rev 12:12-17

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

KJV

I take this all literally (more or less). The object "as it were a mountain burning with fire," I believe, is a description of a meteorite that strikes the Mediterranean Sea and causes a tidal wave that affects Isra'el (among other nations), right up to the heights of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! It's the water as a flood (potamos) that chases Isra'el to do them harm but they escape into the wilderness, most likely south to the Negev. However, even there, it would seem that the water would pursue them, but a fissure opens and the river dumps harmlessly into the fissure.

You see, no such "flood" has ever occurred in Yerushalayim before. Only if someone will claim that these verses were fulfilled "spiritually" or allegorically could one make the claim that these verses have already been fulfilled. However, IMO, to make such a claim is dangerous business! When one starts claiming that this or that was fulfilled allegorically, we open up Pandora's box of theological misapplications and the sky's the limit how far one will go! Prophecy has consistently been fulfilled literally down through the years. Even when a person could not see how a certain prophecy could EVER be fulfilled literally, God gets it done...LITERALLY!

Third, I feel as though God would have me reiterate for you the fact that there is NO "great tribulation" as was described in Matthew 24:19-25:

Matt 24:19-25

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

KJV

Please allow this paraphrase to help you; it is not intended to replace Scripture; it is meant only to clarify:

OOAAIIEE! to those who are with child and to those who nurse during those days (for they would be burdened and hindered in their escape)! And, beg [God] that your escape not be in the winter (when weather could be a factor) nor on the Shabbat (when the ingrained keeping of the rules of Shabbat could be a factor), for then would be terrible pressure, such as has never been since the beginning of the earth up to this time--no--nor ever shall be again! Unless those days would be shortened, no one would be rescued; however, for the Chosen Ones' sake, those days shall be shortened.

At that time, if anyone shall say to you, "Look! Here's the Messiah!" or "There He is!" don't you believe it! For there shall spring up fake Messiahs, and fake prophets, and shall demonstrate impressive signs and miracles; so much so that, if it were possible, they would even fool the very Chosen Ones! Watch out! I've warned you before it all takes place.

Understand? The "great tribulation" is not over the whole earth; it WOULD HAVE BEEN over the whole LAND (of Isra'el) and it WOULD HAVE BEEN a massive pressure (thlipsis megalas) put on the Jews at a time when an attempted genocide was taking place! The attackers had attempted many things to flush the Jews out of hiding, including claims of "the Messiah has arrived!" Only those who were prepared (warned by this very prophecy) would be spared death. Fortunately (Providentially), being forewarned and praying to God against the conditions that would bring on "great tribulation," the "great tribulation" was avoided and folks survived the attempted genocide by Rome in 70 A.D. by fleeing to the mountains.

Fourth, the first 3-1/2 years of Dani'el's 70th "seven" ("week") was the ministry of Yeshua` during His First Advent. The covenant that He confirmed with many was that which His Forerunner's father prophecied:

Luke 1:67-79

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation (Hebrew: yashua`) for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation (Hebrew: yashua`) unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

KJV

Then, look at the baptism (Hebrew: miqvah) of Yochanan (John):

Matt 3:3-12

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

KJV

Baptism, by the way, is not new with Christianity; mikvahs are a Jewish bath used for ritual bathing to symbolize the confession of sin and its forgiveness.

Retrobyter

[Rhonda Lou]

Retrobyter,

Thank you for confirming my understanding that you see that abomination as Israel's rejection of God.

You mentioned that the flood had not taken place yet, and won't until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. When it does occur, it will be a literal flood. I agree that the there is a gap until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. But if that is true, and Daniel 9:24-27 is speaking of 70 weeks, and 69 of them have occurred, then desoloations until the end, the flood, the time of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, wouldn't that final seven be the final week rather than a reiteration of one of the first 69 weeks?

Matthew 24 opens this way: "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily, I say unto you, there shall not be any left here, one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (This event occurred in 70 AD). And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? (The destruction of the temple) and what shall be the signs of Thy coming (Jesus' Second Coming) and of the end of the world? ("the world" is outside of Jerusalem, but it does begin in Jerusalem at the temple). The Great Tribulation is also mentioned elsewhere, under other names, but attributed to the whole world. Paul speaks of it to the Thessalonian Christians, who were Greeks, in 1 Thessalonians 5. In Revelation 3:17, we are told, "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth." That "hour of temptation" is seen as the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 6:15-17, we are told, "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:15-17).

I surmised that the first 3 1/2 years of the final seventy weeks are seen as Jesus' 3 1/2 years on earth, it was the final 3 1/2 years I didn't understand. If I'm understanding what you are telling me, you believe they did not occur because the prophecy forewarned people to pray and they stopped it all from happening -- at least that is what I think you mean by: "The "great tribulation" is not over the whole earth; it WOULD HAVE BEEN over the whole LAND (of Isra'el) and it WOULD HAVE BEEN a massive pressure (thlipsis megalas) put on the Jews at a time when an attempted genocide was taking place! The attackers had attempted many things to flush the Jews out of hiding, including claims of "the Messiah has arrived!" Only those who were prepared (warned by this very prophecy) would be spared death. Fortunately (Providentially), being forewarned and praying to God against the conditions that would bring on "great tribulation," the "great tribulation" was avoided and folks survived the attempted genocide by Rome in 70 A.D. by fleeing to the mountains." So how does this fit in with Revelation 12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred and threescore days (1,260 days or 3 1/2 years)? Are you saying that won't happen because the faithful remnant prayed for it not to happen between Jesus' prophecies and 70 AD?

I found the covenant from Luke 1 interesting. There are several covenants in the Bible. The one mentioned here is part of the Abrahamic Covenant. He also made a covenant with Moses, and the Israelites, David, and what I've always considered the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-33). In Jeremiah, I believe it was attributed to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In Hebrews 8 and 10, I believe it is extended to other believers, but I believe it is sealed in Communion, "Take, drink, this is the blood of the New Covenant, shed for you, for the forgiveness of sins". (paraphrased). I do not believe communion wine is Jesus' actual blood, but I do see something mysterious in communion. For the purposes of this discussion, I believe that the covenant you referenced occurs at the announcement of John the Baptist as a prophet, (the voice crying in the wilderness) to say that the promised Messiah is here. Neither the Messiah nor John the Baptist have been born yet, and the covenant goes back to the time of Abraham, so are you saying that this is the covenant that Jesus will confirm? Interesting; I'd not heard that before.

Finally, I DO realize that baptism pre-dated Jesuss -- and even John the Baptist. I find baptism fascinating. Jesus told His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that baptism is immersion/identification with the name used for it. John the Baptist had the baptism of repentance, so the one immersed was immersed into repentance, and identified as such. It was irrevocable, and done publicly. I read that one who was baptized into repentance, under John the Baptist, was saying, in essence, "I have sinned so badly, I am like the hated Gentiles. But I repent, and will never do that again." Much pride had to be swallowed before allowing this to occur. Later, to be baptized as a Christian, knowing that Christians were persecuted and killed by the religious leaders of that day, was to say, "I identify with you, Jesus, even if it means my death" and to do this in such a public matter, took a lot of courage. I almost wish the same importance were attached to it today. So, I can see where you would mark that as the sign of the covenant.

Thank you once again for your detail, and for answering my questions. I've not seen your interpretations anywhere else before. Wile, I still believe that Daniel 9:24-27 is a liteal 70 weeks, with a gap in verse 26 before "he confirms a covenant" (paraphrased), you've helped me to see different interpretations of other verses, and I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts.

Rhonda Lou

[antiaging]

The seven years of Tribulation, Is it biblical?

Preterism. Is that what you are trying to prove?

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

That didn't happen in AD 70. You can dig 40 feet down in Jerusalem and see that there are many foundation stones with wall stones on top of them, of the original temple building, and they have not been thrown down yet; they are still on top of one another, uderground. So the end times that Jesus spoke of has not happened yet, and certainly not in AD 70.

[There are also stones one on top the other in the wailing wall, above ground.]