My political viewpoint...

[KeilanS]

Okay, well I posted this here because it is far less likely to explode into some annoying political debate, those never seem to help me out.

I find my viewpoints slowly shifting towards a socialist point of view. Partially because of how much I appreciate the health care system and education I get in Canada, but also from the lack of defence I'm seeing against it.

I have asked a lot of Americans and the main answer I get is "America is the best country in the world and it's capitalist so that's proof enough". Now unless you are blinded completely by patriotism, that won't do it. So there must be a real half-decent reasoning as to why ALL government control is bad.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete socialist, I just agree with it in terms of things like health care and educations. Although I am beginning to think it couldn't hurt the food distribution industry. People claim that government control leads to waste, you can't even imagine the waste I see working at a grocery store right now. And of course there is some government control that all societies should have (minimum wages, working hour constraints, etc.).

So why is socialism wrong with no exceptions? I just don't understand it. I am also finding my viewpoint hurt by how many Americans seem to be blinded by patriotism. The viewpoints I've been getting just seem SO biased. There are too many people who are concerned with being Americans over being Christians.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, I just hate the way I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of Christians here. So somebody bring my back to capitalism with whatever great reasoning is working for the rest of you.

[MorningGlory]

Okay, well I posted this here because it is far less likely to explode into some annoying political debate, those never seem to help me out.

I find my viewpoints slowly shifting towards a socialist point of view. Partially because of how much I appreciate the health care system and education I get in Canada, but also from the lack of defence I'm seeing against it.

I have asked a lot of Americans and the main answer I get is "America is the best country in the world and it's capitalist so that's proof enough". Now unless you are blinded completely by patriotism, that won't do it. So there must be a real half-decent reasoning as to why ALL government control is bad.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete socialist, I just agree with it in terms of things like health care and educations. Although I am beginning to think it couldn't hurt the food distribution industry. People claim that government control leads to waste, you can't even imagine the waste I see working at a grocery store right now. And of course there is some government control that all societies should have (minimum wages, working hour constraints, etc.).

So why is socialism wrong with no exceptions? I just don't understand it. I am also finding my viewpoint hurt by how many Americans seem to be blinded by patriotism. The viewpoints I've been getting just seem SO biased. There are too many people who are concerned with being Americans over being Christians.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, I just hate the way I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of Christians here. So somebody bring my back to capitalism with whatever great reasoning is working for the rest of you.

Socialism, in it's truest form, stifles creativity and initiative. Who wants the government into every aspect of one's life? Governments never do anything as well as private industry. Never. You may have a national health service in Canada but it is NOT free. Someone has to pay for it and that someone would be the working, tax paying Canadian. The redistribution of what I work for to others, who may not work at all, isn't something that appeals to me or most Americans. We are a different breed, I guess. Btw, it's God, family, country to most Christians I know, although I can't speak for everyone.

[KeilanS]

Socialism, in it's truest form, stifles creativity and initiative. Who wants the government into every aspect of one's life? Governments never do anything as well as private industry. Never. You may have a national health service in Canada but it is NOT free. Someone has to pay for it and that someone would be the working, tax paying Canadian. The redistribution of what I work for to others, who may not work at all, isn't something that appeals to me or most Americans. We are a different breed, I guess. Btw, it's God, family, country to most Christians I know, although I can't speak for everyone.

Thanks for the reply Glory. I couldn't agree more with your first sentence. Socialism in it's truest form is horrible. But Capitalism in it's truest form is what had 8 year old girls working 16 hour shifts in factories during the industrial revolution. They are both horrible in their truest forms.

And I agree with the inefficiency point (I have a government job at the moment, and one cannot deny that it lacks efficiency). I hope I didn't come across as being a supporter of repeating communist Russia here in the west. However, would there not be a way to fix that? What if the government allowed to workers to earn more money based on efficiency? That way they would still be motivated to work hard but it would end things like the top 1% of the population having 40% of the money.

As for health care, we may take 6 weeks to get a patient in for treatment at times, but you never hear of someone dying early because they can't afford treatment. It's kind of a lesser of two evils deal and it could go either way.

The issue that made me post my bit about Americans worrying too much about their country is the war in Iraq. How many people do you think tries to view the war in the sense of what is best for the church, rather than what is best for America?

Again, I'm not against capitalism or America, I just struggle to understand why socialism (even in things such as health care and not a full government) is treated like pure evil.

[Eliyahuw]

Bottom line is that socialist anything is never free. Think about how much tax you have to pay out to fund that "free" healthcare. More importantly, that "free" has a massive price in that it pretty much destroys innovation and new ideas. When a idea has a potential to make people money, they put the time and resources into it to develop it. IF they have to give it away for free, whats thepoint?

Next thing is that socialized anything steals the hard earned money out of the pockets of those workers that are producing. min wage laws make it so there are less producers.

For example, if i were to hire anyone in my business, i would pay based on a production ratio. if you do x you get y. IF you do more than x you get not only y but also z.

Free market rewards ingenuity, intellegence, abilities of that person, as well as excellence instead of mediocracy. Why would anyone want to do their best if anyone can do their minimum and get paid the same.

free market works best in industries like the medical. for a personal example, i suffer from Congestive heart failure. last year, a company released a new drug that investors went out and funded, and the research was done, and a new drug, a calcium blocker was developed, the first ever. that calcium blocker, has given me back my life. i cna now walk farther than 50 feet without having to take a nitro glycerin tablet. That pill would have NEVER been developed if we had socialized medicine here. NO OTHER country has even started researching into this type of blocker. Why? its not worth it financially for the company.

[KeilanS]

Bottom line is that socialist anything is never free. Think about how much tax you have to pay out to fund that "free" healthcare. More importantly, that "free" has a massive price in that it pretty much destroys innovation and new ideas. When a idea has a potential to make people money, they put the time and resources into it to develop it. IF they have to give it away for free, whats thepoint?

Next thing is that socialized anything steals the hard earned money out of the pockets of those workers that are producing. min wage laws make it so there are less producers.

For example, if i were to hire anyone in my business, i would pay based on a production ratio. if you do x you get y. IF you do more than x you get not only y but also z.

Free market rewards ingenuity, intellegence, abilities of that person, as well as excellence instead of mediocracy. Why would anyone want to do their best if anyone can do their minimum and get paid the same.

free market works best in industries like the medical. for a personal example, i suffer from Congestive heart failure. last year, a company released a new drug that investors went out and funded, and the research was done, and a new drug, a calcium blocker was developed, the first ever. that calcium blocker, has given me back my life. i cna now walk farther than 50 feet without having to take a nitro glycerin tablet. That pill would have NEVER been developed if we had socialized medicine here. NO OTHER country has even started researching into this type of blocker. Why? its not worth it financially for the company.

Well, what you posted about wage makes sense. Obviously a system will not work if someone doing the least gets paid the same as someone doing the most. That is why I would approve of a wage based system that rewards based on productivity. Using your examples. If you do X, then you will be paid $X. So the worker who does twice as much will make twice as much. The worker who does his least will either get the lowest amount of pay or simply be fired. Then they would have a wage cap at a reasonable amount considering the current economy, but it would be high enough that in order to earn the maximum wage you would have to be at least as productive as employees in a private company.

And of course, I could not support true socialism, because then I wouldn't be referring to money at all. I would support the government control of essentials (Food, Housing, Education, Healthcare, Water, Power) and leave entertainment/non-essentials private. (After all, you can't just provide all citizens with one videogame and call it equal, not everyone plays videogames). It wouldn't even necessarily have to mean an increase in taxes. Instead it would have you buying food like normal at the grocery store but the government controlling the final profit. Then that profit would be in the hands of the government for whatever use is necessary (medical research for example) instead of in the hands of a grocery store owner who would use it for putting a swimming pool in his backyard.

Now, I'm not sure if what I've just described can even be called socialism anymore. But no matter, would a system like this work?

[KeilanS]

Just a note I thought I should add.

When I am 18 I will vote for the conservatives. While I agree with some liberal economic policies, the liberals are very... well... liberal in terms of morals and biblical issues. And of course I put those ahead of economic issues.

[Fraught]

Okay, well I posted this here because it is far less likely to explode into some annoying political debate, those never seem to help me out.

I find my viewpoints slowly shifting towards a socialist point of view. Partially because of how much I appreciate the health care system and education I get in Canada, but also from the lack of defence I'm seeing against it.

I have asked a lot of Americans and the main answer I get is "America is the best country in the world and it's capitalist so that's proof enough". Now unless you are blinded completely by patriotism, that won't do it. So there must be a real half-decent reasoning as to why ALL government control is bad.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete socialist, I just agree with it in terms of things like health care and educations. Although I am beginning to think it couldn't hurt the food distribution industry. People claim that government control leads to waste, you can't even imagine the waste I see working at a grocery store right now. And of course there is some government control that all societies should have (minimum wages, working hour constraints, etc.).

So why is socialism wrong with no exceptions? I just don't understand it. I am also finding my viewpoint hurt by how many Americans seem to be blinded by patriotism. The viewpoints I've been getting just seem SO biased. There are too many people who are concerned with being Americans over being Christians.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, I just hate the way I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of Christians here. So somebody bring my back to capitalism with whatever great reasoning is working for the rest of you.

[Fraught]

Okay, well I posted this here because it is far less likely to explode into some annoying political debate, those never seem to help me out.

I find my viewpoints slowly shifting towards a socialist point of view. Partially because of how much I appreciate the health care system and education I get in Canada, but also from the lack of defence I'm seeing against it.

I have asked a lot of Americans and the main answer I get is "America is the best country in the world and it's capitalist so that's proof enough". Now unless you are blinded completely by patriotism, that won't do it. So there must be a real half-decent reasoning as to why ALL government control is bad.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete socialist, I just agree with it in terms of things like health care and educations. Although I am beginning to think it couldn't hurt the food distribution industry. People claim that government control leads to waste, you can't even imagine the waste I see working at a grocery store right now. And of course there is some government control that all societies should have (minimum wages, working hour constraints, etc.).

So why is socialism wrong with no exceptions? I just don't understand it. I am also finding my viewpoint hurt by how many Americans seem to be blinded by patriotism. The viewpoints I've been getting just seem SO biased. There are too many people who are concerned with being Americans over being Christians.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, I just hate the way I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of Christians here. So somebody bring my back to capitalism with whatever great reasoning is working for the rest of you.

I can agree that socialism has a lot going for it but it takes only one wrong thing about it for me to reject it and that is: If the government provides everything for you, you must totally obey the government or get nothing. No 'ism' is perfect, tho, not even capitalism.

[mathqueen]

Just a note I thought I should add.

When I am 18 I will vote for the conservatives. While I agree with some liberal economic policies, the liberals are very... well... liberal in terms of morals and biblical issues. And of course I put those ahead of economic issues.

WOW you're only 15??? You are very well-spoken for such a youngin'!!

Glad you started this thread, given my own current political-identity crisis.

mathy

P.S. Hey you're really 16 (I just saw another post where you stated your age lol)!! Change your profile silly!

Edited July 25, 2007 by mathqueen

[KeilanS]

Well, I was thinking about this at work. And I realized all my thoughts are pretty much theoretical, so I can safely ignore them. As much as I think my idea would work, I have to take what fraught said. This gives the government too much power, and I don't trust the government that far. So unless we have an openly Christ centered government, I would not want to give them too much power.