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Who is Israel?


Fraught

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I was away all weekend and am now reading this -

I just wanted to say that this was an awesome post!

:)

I think the best understanding of this issue of the church replacing Israel is found by examining Romans 8-12. THere you will find a description of a tree...an olive tree. This tree represents the family of God. Jesus is the root of the tree and Israel are the branches. Some of the branches were removed (notice not all the branches were removed) and other "wild" branches (read as gentiles) were grated into this family by faith. Paul cautions us in thinking too highly of ourselves and becoming belligerent to the original branches. If God was willing to replace the original branches, then replacing the wild branches is even more possible.

Paul goes on to mention that once the whole of the gentiles to be saved are grafted into the tree, then thw hole of Israel will be saved. You see, God knows which gentiles are to be grafted in and once we have been grafted in, then He will save the whole of Israel. He will remove the blindness and deafness that has come upon them for our (the gentiles) sake. Then God will complete His family tree with the rest of Israel. It is so very beautiful to see what God is doing. Israel is only temporarily blinded to what God is doing. They will be saved.

Why would any Christian think that God has thrown away Israel? If He did, how could we ever be certain that one day He would not throw us (the church) away as well?

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If the Church is Israel, then all the Scriptures about the children of Israel being gathered from the North, the South, the East and the West to Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) make no sense whatsoever.

Why? The church is scattered all over as well. And I am not being facetious here. My desire to know is honest and sincere.

Scattered throughout - as in being widespread - yes.

But was the Church ever driven out of its homeland and disperse? Yes, the Gospel was spread throughout the Earth, but was the Church ever uprooted from its homeland?

Why would the Lord call for the Church to be gathered "from the four corners of the earth"? I don't know about you, but I have no sense of having been scattered. :)

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:24:

For the Church to be "thrown away".....
:whistling::blink::24:

Where Ever Did You Get This Thought From?

It Sure Did Not Come From The Bible Believers At Worthy, Jew Or Gentile.

:24:

Here Comes The Lord

Who's That With Him?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 1:14-15

Now That's Way Too Cool!

Even Before The Flood God's Preachers Knew Jesus Would Return!

I Wonder Who Could Possible Be Living In Jerusalem That Jesus Needs To Rescue.

:)

Might There Really Be A Difference Between The Messianic Jew And The Christan Gentile.

Does A Jew Really Quit Being A Jew When He Has Jesus The KING Of The Jews As His Messiah.

The Non-believing Jew Say So.

Some "Brothers" Say So.

I Think Not!

The Bible Tells Me

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1 Corinthians 10:32

:)

Peculiar How The Messianic Jew Is Under Attach

Under Attach From The God-Hating Atheist

Under Attach From Godless Communists

Under Attach From Non-Believing Jews

Under Attach From World Wide Islam

Under Attach From The Humanist

I Find It Strange How The Messianic Jew Is Even Under Attach From Some Christian Folk Who Appear To Have Forgotten That Their Lord And Savior Is a Jew And He Is The Same Yesterday, Today And Tomorrow.

Is This A Verse That Authorizes Messianic Jew Bashing By The "Humble And Thankful" Grafted-In Gentile Or Is It Telling Us About God's Grace Upon Both The Jew And The Gentile.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:12

:)

Whether Jew Or Gentile, If You Have Seen Jesus And Believed, You Have Received Treasure Beyond Measure.

Share Him!

Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow!

Maranatha!

Hallelujah!

Come Quickly Lord Jesus, Come Quickly!

Love, Your Brother Joe

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I think the best understanding of this issue of the church replacing Israel is found by examining Romans 8-12. THere you will find a description of a tree...an olive tree. This tree represents the family of God. Jesus is the root of the tree and Israel are the branches. Some of the branches were removed (notice not all the branches were removed) and other "wild" branches (read as gentiles) were grated into this family by faith. Paul cautions us in thinking too highly of ourselves and becoming belligerent to the original branches. If God was willing to replace the original branches, then replacing the wild branches is even more possible.

Paul goes on to mention that once the whole of the gentiles to be saved are grafted into the tree, then thw hole of Israel will be saved. You see, God knows which gentiles are to be grafted in and once we have been grafted in, then He will save the whole of Israel. He will remove the blindness and deafness that has come upon them for our (the gentiles) sake. Then God will complete His family tree with the rest of Israel. It is so very beautiful to see what God is doing. Israel is only temporarily blinded to what God is doing. They will be saved.

Why would any Christian think that God has thrown away Israel? If He did, how could we ever be certain that one day He would not throw us (the church) away as well?

AMEN!

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Israel = the NT Church of all Believers (The Israel of God)

and

Israel = a country in the Middle East that is our political ally.

OT Israel is gone, a type and shadow of the New Testament church. The temple is gone. The sacrifices are gone, completed and fulfilled at the cross. The judicial OT law is gone. The ceremonial law is gone. The Prophets are gone. The baptism into Moses is gone and replaced by baptism into Jesus. Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Unbelieving Jews now take their place with unbelieving Gentiles. God has made his final move against sin. It is finished. The gospel is here in its fullness. Amen, amen and amen. Praise God.

sw

:emot-hug:

:huh::)

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Israel = the NT Church of all Believers (The Israel of God)

and

Israel = a country in the Middle East that is our political ally.

OT Israel is gone, a type and shadow of the New Testament church. The temple is gone. The sacrifices are gone, completed and fulfilled at the cross. The judicial OT law is gone. The ceremonial law is gone. The Prophets are gone. The baptism into Moses is gone and replaced by baptism into Jesus. Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Unbelieving Jews now take their place with unbelieving Gentiles. God has made his final move against sin. It is finished. The gospel is here in its fullness. Amen, amen and amen. Praise God.

sw

:)

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

:24:

You can make that analogy just as I can make the analogy that Neo was a type of Crist in "The Matrix"

So what???

The Bible does not say that.

You are being informed by theological devices written by Europeans in mid-to-late centuries. The New Covenant scriptures were written by hebrews 2,000 years ago who all came from the hebraic race that God had been carrying BY HIMSELF for about 3,500 years previous. He has made promises to their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that He intends to keep. As christians, we share in that testimony. We come with the same faith as Abraham or we don't come at all. But the gentiles do not share in the covenants made with Jacob...only Israel; though they are the same person.

There is a difference between scripture and theology. One is true no matter what the other one says...

Take another look.

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OT Israel is gone, - and their descendants whom are living in the very same land which God promised to bring them back to is all a strange coincedence?

Suppose all those other things the Prophets said which literally came true were coincedences also? :)

a type and shadow of the New Testament church. - a theological opinion which, strangely for you, NO ONE in the bible ever said

The temple is gone. - He is building it one stone at a time....and yet there is another literal one coming also.

The sacrifices are gone, completed and fulfilled at the cross. - the need to receive that sacrifice is central to the christian faith so the sacrifice isn't really "gone" is it? No, it is a good example of how the Law, while still in place, is interpreted through the Spirit.

The judicial OT law is gone. - answered that one already. It is not "gone". That opinion is another theological device which is not actually stated by Paul or any of the other Apostles. Again...EVERY Word of God is true, it is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

What you fail to recognize is that the Torah was the Constitution of nation called Israel. It was their civil code just as we have the Bill of Rights in America. But you can't enfore the speed limits of the USA on a person living in Germany driving the Autoban. In like manner, the judicial laws you mention NEVER applied to anyone outside of Israel.

They didn't become "untrue" as though they were void, however. Many of the underlying principles are in our own Constitution. That is why America was once called a Judeo-Christian nation.

Therefore, the Spirit of the Law is intact even now.

The ceremonial law is gone. - if you are talking about the laws which only applied to levites working in the Temple anyway then, yea, they are gone for now; at least in the flesh. If you are speaking about the Mo'edim and Sabbath then we'd have to disagree.

The day is coming when the nations will be punished if they don't keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (That isn't talked about much in European theological writings, but it IS in Zechariah 14)

The Prophets are gone. - just because you can't hear them doesn't mean they aren't speaking

The baptism into Moses is gone and replaced by baptism into Jesus. - Ah..good example!

The "mikveh" (a hebrew word and concept translated as "baptism" in english) of repentance is what you were given by Yochanan ("John" in english) and the mikveh of new life in Yeshua ("Jesus" in english) is accomplished through immersion into the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit consumed just as a burnt offering.

But a "ritual" (aka baptism ceremony) done apart from being immersed into Him will only get you wet.

Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. - I believe that is mistaken again.

There is no difference in position, preference, or person but that does not mean that there is no distinction

Just as there is a distinction between men and women in the Body without regard to position, preference, or person, so it is between jew and gentiles.

Consider this:

Yeshua went only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He recognized a distinction.

Paul spoke of "those of the circumcision" within the Body. He recognized a distinction.

Peter was the Apostle to the circumcision within the Body. He recognized a distinction.

The Europeans who came a couple of centuries later also recognized a distinction....and harrassed/persecuted jews out of "their" church through theological devices and even persecution.

Distinction doesn't have to mean that one is better than the other. It isn't "either/or" in the original hebraic understanding of what Shaul is saying. It's a multiplicity of depth of understanding. The jews already had a purpose before the gentiles came along. The nations (gentiles) who came in were taking a different role; one of provoking the jews to jealousy through faithfulness, kindness, mercy, love (romans 11:31)

Paul spoke of them here:

19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Unbelieving Jews now take their place with unbelieving Gentiles. - that is the only thing you've said that I can agree with so far. Yet you got it exactly backwards. The gentiles will be joining the jews there also.

Romans 2:8-10

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

God promises many wonderful things to an end-times nation called Israel. It will shake the surrounding nations into faith and it will be the most glorious day in history!

And those of the nations who love His appearing will be as blessed as His people. He will remove the veil over the eyes of the gentiles. And at the Great Feast, He will remove the reproach of His people. (That isn't in any European writings either but can be found in Isaiah 25)

He will judge the Nations according to Matthew 25. They will account for how they treated "the least of these, my brethren"

God has made his final move against sin. - there is a lake fire yet to come

It is finished. - the price is paid for those past and future who put their trust in HIM...but not through theology....through the Spirit.

He promises to show mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments. Why would we need mercy if we keep those commandments?

Just because He shows mercy does not mean we aren't breaking the Law. But He owes no man mercy who constantly breaks His commandments whether that man has been sprinkled or not.

The gospel is here in its fullness. Amen, amen and amen. Praise God.-

And yet time goes on and we have the descendants of Jacob back in the land as the Prophets said they would be.

Acts 1:6 "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

We don't know the times but according to Yeshua a time has been set.

This was said AFTER the Resurrection just before His feet left the Earth for heaven.

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Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. - mistaken again.

There is no difference in position, preference, or person bu that does mean that there is no distinction

Hi Yod.

What did Paul mean by there is no Jew or Gentile in galatians 3? Paul explains what he meant in Galatians 4:1-7

1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Since Paul explained above what did he mean then by there 'is no Jew or gentile'? Jew and gentile, slave and free, male and female all received salvation the same way in the Old Covenant as they all do in the New. Paul sums up what he meant in vv.6 & 7. So we are all heirs wether jew, gentile, slave free or male or female. Did all have the same status of inheritance in the Old Covenant? No. So since all are eqaul heirs as sons of God because of Christ's work then I don't understand jews (Isreal) having a different inheritance from what jew or gentile, slave or free, male or female inherit as sons of God.

I'm trying to get and gather for myself all the arguments for both sides. Thus far I understand from Galatians that jew and gentile, slave and free, male and female inherit all that God has as sons of God.

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Thus far I understand from Galatians that jew and gentile, slave and free, male and female inherit all that God has as sons of God.

I can agree with that statement on every level.

But you and I inherit it as "the nations joined to the Commonwealth of Israel" as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2 & 3 or as Isaiah says in chapter 55 "many sons of a stranger who have joined unto the land"

a jew inherits it through their actual heritage of that same land. When I read the history of my people (Texas) the book talks about cattle and oil a lot. When a jew reads his history, it is the bible. You really can't see a distinction there?

:emot-hug:

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Guest shiloh357
What did Paul mean by there is no Jew or Gentile in galatians 3? Paul explains what he meant in Galatians 4:1-7

When Paul says in Galatians 3:28 that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, he is talking about access to grace. Paul actually says there is nither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free.

What Paul is saying is that pedigree, gender and social status offer no advantage or disadvantage where access to grace is concerned.

Paul is not saying that the distinctions between Jew and Gentile are erased any more than he would argue that the distinctions between male and female are erased. No one would make the argument that they ceased to be a man or woman the moment they got saved.

Many people misapply what Paul is saying because they only apply the rules to Jews and Gentiles and not to males and females.

It is not so much that Jews have a different inheritance. That is not really the issue. The issue is that many want to claim that the Jewish people are no longer imporant in the prophetic plan of God, and that God is done with biblical Israel. Again, the nonsense that Israel is a type of the Church is part and parcel of the false teaching of Replacement Theology which is a harmful contagion that infecting Christian theology.

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