Baptism?

[Guest yod]

Once again, that idea wasn't even alive then.

not much of a historian, bro

What does the burnt offering symbolize?

[stevehut]

On the matter of baptism:

I agree with the original post almost entirely, except:

Calvin did NOT agree with Zwingli on the meaning of baptism. Everything that Calvin taught about baptism, confirmed the doctrine that it was the final step in the plan of salvation. (Geneva Catechism, French Confession, Institutes)

Zwingli is a curious case because he even disagreed with the known teaching of his own church, the Swiss Reformed Church.

(Apart from Zwingli), for the first 1500 years, EVERY Christian teacher in the world taught that baptism was the final act in the plan of salvation. This includes some of the most dreaded heretics. Also, to this day, the following churches also "officially" teach this doctrine. But for most of them, they don't talk about it from the pulpit. They include:

Catholics

Orthodox

Anglican

Episcopal

Primitive Baptists

Methodists

Reformed

Presbyterians

Mormons

Celtic Churches

Coptic Churches

Melkite churches

Christadelphians

Church of God in Christ

Church of the Brethren

Lutherans

Mennonites

Pentecostals

Puritans

World Council of Churches

Teachers:

Matthew Henry

Jonathan Edwards

Watchman Nee

Erasmus

F.F. Bruce

Did you know this?

[godrulz]

The vast majority of Pentecostals do not believe in baptismal regeneration. It is an ordinance like communion and is not salvific (essential for salvation). The above list includes a few cults.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey Yod,

I know baptism is symbolic. I am not arguing that. 1ptr29citizen has addressed some of that. But the symbolic act of baptism saves.

A few points on 1 Peter 3.

21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you

[Adstar]

Acts 11

5"I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7And I heard a voice saying to me, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8But I said, "Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.' 9But the voice answered me again from heaven, "What God has cleansed you must not call common.' 10Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, "Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

The baptizim of the Holy Spirit occurred when they believed on the Lord Jesus.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest shiloh357]

1ptr29citizen

Baptism is a physical ritual, yes, there is no arguement, the very word baptizma means immersion in water.

I was going to stay out of this one, but this is the most interesting thread going on, IMHO.

"Baptismo" does not mean immersion in water, it means "identification." We are baptized into or,

"identified" with Christ when we get saved. Immersion in water is symbolic of being baptized into Christ. If one is going to say that bapitsm is necessary for salvation, it would have to be the "spiritual baptism" that occurs. Just because the word baptism is used does not mean that it is referring to water immersion. That is the problem. Baptism is a word that was not translated into the English Bible. It was transliterated. Baptism should be tranlsated as identification in many parts of the NT. It would remove a lot of confusion. We in the church today seem to take that word and apply it one demensionally, by only seeing it as a reference to water immersion.

But baptism is more than just that! It's how we are united with Christ (Galatians 3:27),

In the sense of spritual identification, not water immersion.

And the water that saved Noah (a VERY physical water), symbolizes baptism (so it also must be a physical water), and baptism now saves you, like it saved Noah! Now Noah WOULDN'T have been saved by the water if it wasn't for the ark, and likewise we wouldn't be saved by baptism in water if it wasn't for Christ's resurrection! It says that in the later of the verse!

Wrong!!! The water did not save Noah!!! Peter said that Noah was saved THROUGH the water, not BY the water. The flood was an act of judgement. It's purpose was not to save, but to destroy. Noah was saved by the ARK, which is a type of Christ. Noah was saved through the water in the sense that my family was once saved through a tornado by staying their basement. They were saved through the tornado, not by it. To be "saved through," means to be brought safely through. Noah and his family were brought safely through the flood by means of the Ark.

You need to look at the grammatical structure of 1 Peter 3:21:

And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism here is referring not to water immersion (Noah was not immersed in water). The salvific element is "an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," not water immersion.

[stevehut]

godrulz,

Please do your homework. You mentioned Pentecostals?

United Pentecostal Church International (A tract called "The Apostles' Doctrine", by Word Aflame Press)

International Pentecostal Holiness Church (Subscribes to Nicene Creed)

Assemblies of God (Subscribes to Nicene Creed)

Church of God in Christ (A tract called "The Ordinances of the Church")

Calvary Chapel (Subscribes to Nicene Creed)

I think this accounts for a substantial portion of the Pentecostals in the USA.

One section of the Nicene Creed (4th century) says "I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins". Thousands of denominations, all over the world, subscribe to this creed.

Also, modern Pentecostals evolved from the Holiness movement of the late 1700's, which was a branch of the Methodist Church. Methodists have always believed that baptism is the final step in the plan of salvation. Methodists subscribe to the Nicene Creed, and John Wesley's own opinion on the matter is well-documented.

Think about it...

[Guest yod]

Thanks for making this crystal clear, Shilo.

Not much else can be said. All sides have presented their most compelling perspectives and there is nothing more to say which hasn't been said thrice now. We should probably lock this topic while it's still civil.

But this verse bears repeating;

adstar quotes:

16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

The baptizim of the Holy Spirit occurred when they believed on the Lord Jesus.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[stevehut]

Danni,

To answer your questions:

If Baptism is essential to salvation, then what about the person that gives their life to the Lord, thinking they are saved and then dies before they get baptised?

--Can you show me something in the Bible that says u get saved by "giving their live to the Lord"? I can't find it.

What about the thief on the cross?

--Impossible to know whether this man was baptized. The story does not even mention his name; how can we possibly assume anything else about him?

A further study of the Gospels will show us that there is actually nothing unique about this man

[1ptr29citizen]

stevehut, excellent point. Committing your life to Christ before baptism is like telling people about proper hygiene when you're filthy. Baptism brings us into a new life, it's a re-birth, without it, can you even really live for God? You can try, and maybe appeal to others, but you can't BE WITH Christ and God without being in that new life that we receive from baptism as indicated from Romans 6.

16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

The baptizim of the Holy Spirit occurred when they believed on the Lord Jesus.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

Hebrews 3:16-19 tells us that the Israelites couldn't enter the promised land due to their unbelief. In 19 it tells us they couldn't enter because of their disobedience. Which was it? BOTH! Belief and obedience together are one in the same, and altogether they are faith. Don't believe me? Well, James 2:19 tells us that demons believe. Does that mean they'll be saved? NO! Their belief is an acknowledgement form, yes, and they do not TRULY believe. True belief is faith. And how do we recognize faith? 1 John 2:3 would say obedience. 1 Peter 2 gives another example. Those who will stumble due to Christ are unbelievers, and it later says those who will stumble due to Christ are disobedient. Which people will stumble due to the captstone? Unbelievers AND disobedients because belief = obedience, equally faith. Faith isn't just believing, faith isn't just obeying, faith is both, whether you want to argue with 1 John or not. So when those people believed in Acts 11, were they believing like demons? No, they were acknowledging the sacrafice of Christ and obeying God in his instructions on salvation. That is their TRUE belief. And with true belief (belief AND obedience), they were baptized in the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they believed and obeyed (were baptized!)

shiloh, you keep trying to show some things in 1 Peter that just aren't true. Your not seeing what I'm saying. NO, Noah and his family were not saved by the water. If it was water ALONE, they would have drowned. Instead they were saved THROUGH the water BECAUSE OF the ark. They were the ONLY ONES left alive THROUGH the water BECAUSE OF the ark. THAT symbolizes BAPTISM. Baptism saves you THROUGH the water, but not by the water alone, it saves you BECAUSE OF the resurrection of Christ. It says it JUST LIKE THAT in the verse. As for your explanation of "a good conscience towards god - saves you by the resurrection of Christ," it would appear that a good conscience saves you... that is it would appear that way if you hack off the first part of the verse.

Taking a shower makes you clean - not the turning on of water, but the washing away of dirt - it makes you clean by the soap you use.

How does someone get clean? By taking a shower. Now is it possible to take a shower and be unclean? Yes, if you do not use soap then you won't be as clean. Taking a shower isn't just turning on water and standing in the water, THAT isn't how you become clean. Becoming clean is by taking a shower and washing away the dirt. If you take a shower, it's not JUST the shower that makes you clean, and it's not just a stand-there shower, it's a shower where you wash away dirt by soap. If you JUST used the soap however, with no water at all, you'd still be pretty unclean, and frankly, pretty weird.

Likewise, baptism saves us. Period. However it's not JUST baptism, it's a baptism BECAUSE OF the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism IS NOT the removal of dirt from the body, baptism IS the pledge of a good conscience towards God. Baptism saves you because of Christ. So if soap alone couldn't clean you, can Christ ALONE? When I say alone, I mean without having to accept Him at all. No, Christ's resurrection by itself, WITHOUT HAVING TO ACCEPT IT IN YOUR HEART AND SOUL, will not save you, you will be like the demons, who acknowledge Him, but never recieve Him. So how do you recieve Him? Galatians 3:27 would indicate through baptism...

So is it a baptism in water? Yes. Why? Because that's how everyone throughout Acts was baptized. In water, but in Christ. Water baptism results in spiritual baptism. Can spiritual baptism result in spiritual baptism? Umm... how can the same thing do the same thing? Odd, but beside the point. Baptism in water is NEVER mentioned as profession of faith. So why be baptized in water throughout Acts? Because that's how you're saved and united with Christ.

Baptism is no physical ritual. It's spiritual, it's by Christ that it saves us, God just wants us to do it in water.