Evangical letters to bush

[hepatocyte]

"A majority of the Church holds to the heresy of Replacement Theology, a doctrine which precludes the possiblity that Israel is being restored by God in her biblical homeland."

- I've heard about this vaguely somewhere. I don't think God would ever replace Israel...I mean, He chose it to be home for His people...God generally doesn't give up because people turn their backs...hence, Jesus!

[Scarletprayers]

Yes amor you are...........in my mind consistantly wrong, but I'm sure in your mind, the consistantly wrong one is me, but thats the way it goes isn't it.

[Scarletprayers]

"A majority of the Church holds to the heresy of Replacement Theology, a doctrine which precludes the possiblity that Israel is being restored by God in her biblical homeland."

- I've heard about this vaguely somewhere. I don't think God would ever replace Israel...I mean, He chose it to be home for His people...God generally doesn't give up because people turn their backs...hence, Jesus!

replacement theology is a crock! If God who promised Israel He would be their God and they His people for eternity, could actually go back on His word for them, then what hope does the church have, none. God ALWAYS speaks the truth!

[EricH]

For those that think the letter is mistaken, what portion do you take issue with and why. This would be more contructive than simply calling the writers names, which dishonors Jesus

[nebula]

Good point, Eric.

I can name two:

1) The claim that "land for peace" will will result in peace. Giving Gaza to the Palestinians has not made the land any more peaceful than it was before.

2) The claim that Palestinians have just as much historical right to the land of Israel as the Jews. The people who call themselves Palestinians were not a people group until recent history. Before, they were Jordanians, Egyptians, etc.

[Guest shiloh357]

For those that think the letter is mistaken, what portion do you take issue with and why. This would be more contructive than simply calling the writers names, which dishonors Jesus

The first would be this:

Historical honesty compels us to recognize that both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate rights stretching back for millennia to the lands of Israel/Palestine.

The first problem is that the above remark made reflects a less than accurate understanding of the dynamics of the conflict.

To those on the outside looking in, who simply take their understanding from the cable news services and other mainstream media outlets, the issue surrounds the status of the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem. Those who are more familiar with the conflict and actually pay attention to what the leaders of the Palestinians are saying in Arab media, and to their own people, understand that the issue is the very existence of Israel itself. Recall that the Arabs were trying to destroy Israel BEFORE there was one Jew in the Gaza or West Bank.

So when these church leaders claim that the Palestinians have legitimate claim to the Land going back for millenia, which parts are they referring to? It would appear that they see the claims to the Land as being equal, but are they equal? The answer is no, because the "Palestinians" did not exist for millennia. There has never in recorded history ever been a Palestinian people prior to 1967. Prior the establishment of Israel, "Palestinian" was a name applied to the Jewish residents of the Land. The Palestine Post is now the Jerusalem Post, the Palestine Electric Company is now the Israel Electric Company. Even the Palestine Philharmonic changed its name to the Israel Philharmonic after the state of Israel was reborn. All such Palestinian organizations were actaully Jewish prior to the establishment of Israel.

There was never an Arab people called Palestinians prior to 1967, and Land settled initially by Israel was uninhabited and was completely inhospitable. It was mostly swamp and desert and was legally purchased by the returning Jews from absentee Arab landowners in Lebanon. Between the purchase of the Land and the grant of the international community in 1947 to allow Israel to proclaim nationhood later in 1948, the sole legal right to the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.

Furthermore, from a biblical and eternal worldview, based upon God's eternal covenant with Abraham (Genesis 17-8,9) the Land is sole property of the children of Israel. Gaza was part of land portion granted to Judah, and the West Bank is biblical Judea and Samaria, all of which is Jewish land. God at no point in the Old or New Testament ever rescinded or recanted those land grants.

Both Israelis and Palestinians have committed violence and injustice against each other.

This remark fails to take several facts into account. The first being that while Israelis have committed acts of injustice againt Palestinians, they were done alone and indpendent of Israeli policy. Examples would include acts committed by the Lehi/Stern Gang, Yakov Pass, Baruch Goldstein, et al. The author of this letter fails to note that many of these people and organizations were hated by the Jewish people of Israel. The Israelis, generally speaking, did not make heroes out these people.

On the other hand, indiscriminate violence, and terrorism is a matter of public policy and is glorified by the Palestinian populace. The Palestinian leadership uses terrorism as a means of achieving political objectives and young men are lured into becoming suicide bombers on the promise of spending eternal life having sex with 72 perpetual virgins.

The point I am making here is that the above-quoted remark seeks to portray the Israelis and the terrorists as morally equivalent entities, which they are not. The Israelis are not sending out suicide bombers, are not teaching their children that Arabs descended from apes, are not using their synagogue pulpits to call for annihilation of the Arabs/Palestinians. They do not use their children for cannon fodder and propaganda points. It is like comparing the arsonist with the fire firefighter. There is also in the above-quoted remark, a veiled accusation against Israel's self-defense mechanisms. It has become vogue to equate Israel's defensive countermeasures against terrorism with terrorism itself, completely avoiding the obvious moral dissimilarity. It would be like saying that a policeman who shoots an armed bank robber in self defense shares the same moral station with the armed robber.

The only way to bring the tragic cycle of violence to an end is for Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate a just, lasting agreement that guarantees both sides viable, independent, secure states.

1. There is no cycle of violence. Again, this an attempt to make Israel appear morally equivalent to the terrorists.

2. The Palestinians/Arab world has never claimed that it wanted to live in peace with Israel. To date, the only real solution that would appease the Arabs is the complete dismantlement or destruction of Israel. The author of the above-quoted remark fails to recall, apparently, that the Zionists voted FOR a Palestinian state in 1947 agreeing to the UN partition plan. It was the Arabs that voted against it. It was Arafat that rejected the offer for a Palestinian state in 2000. Even going back as far as 1936 during the Peel Commision a proposed partition was rejected by the Arabs. Israel has not stood in the way of the creation of a Palestinian state. At every point, when the offer was made, it has always been the Arabs who rejected any and every two-state solution.

To achieve that goal, both sides must give up some of their competing, incompatible claims. Israelis and Palestinians must both accept each other's right to exist.

Actually, to achieve anything that resembles peace would first require that the Arabs acknolwedge Israel's right to exist and cease and desist all calls for Israel's destruction. Israel has never posed a threat to the existence of the Palestinians. I would like for the author of the above-quoted remark to cite where Israel ever asserted that the Palestiains have no right exist.

And to achieve that goal, the U.S. must provide robust leadership within the Quartet to reconstitute the Middle East roadmap, whose full implementation would guarantee the security of the State of Israel and the viability of a Palestinian State.

For the Road Map to have any credibility it would require the complete disolvement of Hamas and Fatah not to mention the Al Aqsa Brigade, PLFP, Islamic Jihad and any other terrorist organization.

The Road Map fails because the first Phase require the complte dismantling of terrorist groups and the confiscation of illegal weapons. The problem is that the Palestinian Authority is a terrorist organization. It is nothing but the PLO with a suit. The Road Map is nonstarter simply because it is treating the PA as a legitimate political organization. The PA's very existance as an entity is rendered illegal by the Road Map if one takes the Road Map literally. They have never removed the destruction of Israel from their charter, to my knowledge. The Road Map is nothing but another in a long list of failures. None of the peace processes work becaue they are founded on a misguided understanding of this conflict.

[JustinM]

Well put Shiloh. I admire your knowledge of the conflict. You can't argue with the facts, but I'm sure someone will try. I'm sure their first tactic will be to discredit your or the information you submitted, no doubt mentioning something about zionism and tainted/corrupt information from some uncredible source.

Many people here, who aren't boligerent will appreciate what you have submitted. Thanks again Shiloh.

[EricH]

Good point, Eric.

I can name two:

1) The claim that "land for peace" will will result in peace. Giving Gaza to the Palestinians has not made the land any more peaceful than it was before.

2) The claim that Palestinians have just as much historical right to the land of Israel as the Jews. The people who call themselves Palestinians were not a people group until recent history. Before, they were Jordanians, Egyptians, etc.

Good points

[EricH]

For those that think the letter is mistaken, what portion do you take issue with and why. This would be more contructive than simply calling the writers names, which dishonors Jesus

The first would be this:

Historical honesty compels us to recognize that both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate rights stretching back for millennia to the lands of Israel/Palestine.

The first problem is that the above remark made reflects a less than accurate understanding of the dynamics of the conflict.

To those on the outside looking in, who simply take their understanding from the cable news services and other mainstream media outlets, the issue surrounds the status of the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem. Those who are more familiar with the conflict and actually pay attention to what the leaders of the Palestinians are saying in Arab media, and to their own people, understand that the issue is the very existence of Israel itself. Recall that the Arabs were trying to destroy Israel BEFORE there was one Jew in the Gaza or West Bank.

So when these church leaders claim that the Palestinians have legitimate claim to the Land going back for millenia, which parts are they referring to? It would appear that they see the claims to the Land as being equal, but are they equal? The answer is no, because the "Palestinians" did not exist for millennia. There has never in recorded history ever been a Palestinian people prior to 1967. Prior the establishment of Israel, "Palestinian" was a name applied to the Jewish residents of the Land. The Palestine Post is now the Jerusalem Post, the Palestine Electric Company is now the Israel Electric Company. Even the Palestine Philharmonic changed its name to the Israel Philharmonic after the state of Israel was reborn. All such Palestinian organizations were actaully Jewish prior to the establishment of Israel.

There was never an Arab people called Palestinians prior to 1967, and Land settled initially by Israel was uninhabited and was completely inhospitable. It was mostly swamp and desert and was legally purchased by the returning Jews from absentee Arab landowners in Lebanon. Between the purchase of the Land and the grant of the international community in 1947 to allow Israel to proclaim nationhood later in 1948, the sole legal right to the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.

Furthermore, from a biblical and eternal worldview, based upon God's eternal covenant with Abraham (Genesis 17-8,9) the Land is sole property of the children of Israel. Gaza was part of land portion granted to Judah, and the West Bank is biblical Judea and Samaria, all of which is Jewish land. God at no point in the Old or New Testament ever rescinded or recanted those land grants.

Both Israelis and Palestinians have committed violence and injustice against each other.

This remark fails to take several facts into account. The first being that while Israelis have committed acts of injustice againt Palestinians, they were done alone and indpendent of Israeli policy. Examples would include acts committed by the Lehi/Stern Gang, Yakov Pass, Baruch Goldstein, et al. The author of this letter fails to note that many of these people and organizations were hated by the Jewish people of Israel. The Israelis, generally speaking, did not make heroes out these people.

On the other hand, indiscriminate violence, and terrorism is a matter of public policy and is glorified by the Palestinian populace. The Palestinian leadership uses terrorism as a means of achieving political objectives and young men are lured into becoming suicide bombers on the promise of spending eternal life having sex with 72 perpetual virgins.

The point I am making here is that the above-quoted remark seeks to portray the Israelis and the terrorists as morally equivalent entities, which they are not. The Israelis are not sending out suicide bombers, are not teaching their children that Arabs descended from apes, are not using their synagogue pulpits to call for annihilation of the Arabs/Palestinians. They do not use their children for cannon fodder and propaganda points. It is like comparing the arsonist with the fire firefighter. There is also in the above-quoted remark, a veiled accusation against Israel's self-defense mechanisms. It has become vogue to equate Israel's defensive countermeasures against terrorism with terrorism itself, completely avoiding the obvious moral dissimilarity. It would be like saying that a policeman who shoots an armed bank robber in self defense shares the same moral station with the armed robber.

The only way to bring the tragic cycle of violence to an end is for Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate a just, lasting agreement that guarantees both sides viable, independent, secure states.

1. There is no cycle of violence. Again, this an attempt to make Israel appear morally equivalent to the terrorists.

2. The Palestinians/Arab world has never claimed that it wanted to live in peace with Israel. To date, the only real solution that would appease the Arabs is the complete dismantlement or destruction of Israel. The author of the above-quoted remark fails to recall, apparently, that the Zionists voted FOR a Palestinian state in 1947 agreeing to the UN partition plan. It was the Arabs that voted against it. It was Arafat that rejected the offer for a Palestinian state in 2000. Even going back as far as 1936 during the Peel Commision a proposed partition was rejected by the Arabs. Israel has not stood in the way of the creation of a Palestinian state. At every point, when the offer was made, it has always been the Arabs who rejected any and every two-state solution.

To achieve that goal, both sides must give up some of their competing, incompatible claims. Israelis and Palestinians must both accept each other's right to exist.

Actually, to achieve anything that resembles peace would first require that the Arabs acknolwedge Israel's right to exist and cease and desist all calls for Israel's destruction. Israel has never posed a threat to the existence of the Palestinians. I would like for the author of the above-quoted remark to cite where Israel ever asserted that the Palestiains have no right exist.

And to achieve that goal, the U.S. must provide robust leadership within the Quartet to reconstitute the Middle East roadmap, whose full implementation would guarantee the security of the State of Israel and the viability of a Palestinian State.

For the Road Map to have any credibility it would require the complete disolvement of Hamas and Fatah not to mention the Al Aqsa Brigade, PLFP, Islamic Jihad and any other terrorist organization.

The Road Map fails because the first Phase require the complte dismantling of terrorist groups and the confiscation of illegal weapons. The problem is that the Palestinian Authority is a terrorist organization. It is nothing but the PLO with a suit. The Road Map is nonstarter simply because it is treating the PA as a legitimate political organization. The PA's very existance as an entity is rendered illegal by the Road Map if one takes the Road Map literally. They have never removed the destruction of Israel from their charter, to my knowledge. The Road Map is nothing but another in a long list of failures. None of the peace processes work becaue they are founded on a misguided understanding of this conflict.

Excellent post

[Rebmilc]

Well put Shiloh. I admire your knowledge of the conflict. You can't argue with the facts, but I'm sure someone will try. I'm sure their first tactic will be to discredit your or the information you submitted, no doubt mentioning something about zionism and tainted/corrupt information from some uncredible source.

Many people here, who aren't boligerent will appreciate what you have submitted. Thanks again Shiloh.

As a Christian from the UK I second this post Shiloh.

Well done and thanks for your insight.