Did Jesus pray to himself?

[Mutzrein]

Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life.

It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality.

So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world?

Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him.

Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom.

What part of the Trinity do you disagree with, or what part of the definition?

To me if you believe in Christ as spoken of in scripture, the one who all things were created through, then you do indeed believe in the Trinity, it may just be semantics? I don't try to get into the complexities but for me it is very simple only God can forgive sins and I want and need my sins forgiven thus I must know who God is.

Woops missed this one.

It is as scripture says:

Jesus is the Son OF God. Not, the Son who is God.

Jesus is the Lamb OF God. Not, the Lamb who is God.

Forgiveness of sin? Of course it is God who forgives sin. But Jesus is the ONE to whom God has given all authority because He has put all things under his feet, except of course God himself who put all things under him.

This is not semantics. This is the Truth

[damo1]

Life is a pretty good answer, if we are talking about mere creation because Adam had life. He also could have had eternal life, if he could have got past those angels with the flaming swords and got back to the tree of life.

It is also true that Christ came to restore that life as John 1:4 says. The quantity of life is not worth much without quality though. It is manifestation of God's love through the Gift of His Son that gives life quality.

So the question remains; what is the gift of God that manifests His love for the world?

Let me give you a hint: If you don't believe in the Trinity, you can't answer this question. In which case the whole Bible melts down to a puddle of goo and Abraham was the biggest fool on the planet because he was willing to give more than the God who directed him.

Oh I see. So not only am I not a Christian according to some (because I cannot accept the common interpretation of the Trinity) but I am ignorant. Ah well I'm happy in knowing that the the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom.

What part of the Trinity do you disagree with, or what part of the definition?

To me if you believe in Christ as spoken of in scripture, the one who all things were created through, then you do indeed believe in the Trinity, it may just be semantics? I don't try to get into the complexities but for me it is very simple only God can forgive sins and I want and need my sins forgiven thus I must know who God is.

Woops missed this one.

It is as scripture says:

Jesus is the Son OF God. Not, the Son who is God.

Jesus is the Lamb OF God. Not, the Lamb who is God.

Forgiveness of sin? Of course it is God who forgives sin. But Jesus is the ONE to whom God has given all authority because He has put all things under his feet, except of course God himself who put all things under him.

This is not semantics. This is the Truth

damo1

To Mutzrein

amen brother this is the truth god bless you my friend

Jesus is the son of God not the son who is God

have a happy christimas and a happy new year

God bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[whatsitmean]

does that mean i am going to hell

and will you be able to respond to god and tell him why you sat in on judgment on those that do not hold on to your views

Perhaps you did not read my particular posts in the topic. They are Posts #76; 78; 80; 82; 86; 87; and 89. They are all pretty short. I don't blame any one for not understanding them because I am not good at expressing myself but please indicate anywhere that I have been guilty of what you accuse me of, i.e. saying anyone is going to hell or making myself their judge.

i am a little bit dumb or dumb founded in my way of understanding what has been said in the last sevral posts hear on this topic were does trinity and oneness views fit in ? to the question did jesus pray to him self

please educate me whats it mean i would be very intrested to hear you preach gods word to me

If you look at the most recently closed thread on the trinity, you will find this question was asked there by some else. The idea is that if Christ were the only person of the Godhead, then by praying to God, he would be praying to Himself, which I think anyone would agree, doesn't make much sense. If Christ were or is the only person of the Godhead it raises many, many questions. The other possibility is that Jesus was not God but some lesser created being in which case he would to pray to God in exactly the same way we do. Unitarianism comes in both flavors.

I do not disregard Unitarianism simply because it is not the form of doctrine I was taught. I examine doctrines to either prove or disprove them to my own satisfaction. It is my opinion that Unitarianism is false (in either flavor) for many reasons. I am not trying to educate or preach to anyone but simply examine my own beliefs by examining those of others.

So the question I asked regarding John 3:16 was the first one that comes to mind and is most certainly fatal to Unitarianism IMO. If Jesus Christ is one and the same person as God the Father, then what did God give that so expressed His love to the world? The concept of sacrificial giving is so basic throughout scripture, the most profound example being Abraham offering Isaac, that what ever God gave had to have been at great sacrifice to Him self. The model is a father offering his son,

[damo1]

damo1

high whats it mean

i see ok i sort of hear you i was involved in that topic that got clossed down as one member was forcing their views on the topic of trinity and oneness with out hearing other people out so i am very aware of that topic it was not a got topic to start up on a christian forum with so many diffrent people hear from other denominations

my grammer is not that crash hot but i am trying my best so i can makee my point come across in cyber space

expressing your self in cyber space can be hard i am use to dealing with people face to face so please forgive me if i seem to have not heard what you were trying to say

that is why i do not hold on to oneness or trinity views like you i also look at things and study mans doctrines

one thing i have learnt if it does not line up with gods living word i do not take it on board

this is were people can go wrong if they jump in blind and take on mans doctrine when it comes to gods living word why would some one belive in what man has to say

i have also noticed especialy with new christians that they are not being taught like i was taught and that is to test everything some people are just too trusting and this is very sad to see

i had some good mne placed around me and these men taught me to put my trust in the holy spirit and alow him to be my guide my teacher and my friend as this is what the holy spirit is hear for while we are alive on this earth the holy spirit will guide us if we allow him to have full reign in our lives

you seem to have your head on John 3 verse 16 is one i like very much nearly al the scripture passages are so easy to understand but some people are hard headed and will not alow them selves to have a teachable spirit when it comes to gods word

some can not even understand what jesus did in matthew 3 verses 11 17 when jesus walked up to john the baptist john new it was jesus as john said i baptize you with water but their is some one whoes shoes i am not worthy to wear as he will baptize you in fire

what puzzles me people seem to think it was god walking this earth and not his son were if you read threw all the gospels you see were jesus pointed people back to the father even the cross points us back to the father often jesus talked about his father he even said i am not god as the people thought that jesus was hear to rescue them

some even feel that it was god in marys womb and not jesus when its in clear print mary was told by the angel she is to bring gods son into this world

jesus did not come to judge the world he came to save the world

but what i said is how has this topic on did jesus pray to him self turn out into an all out trinity oneness thread

thanks for taking the time to explaine your self and i can read what you are saying to do not feel bad i am in the same boat as you are and i am forcing my self to be better at expressing my self in cyber space

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

have a happy christmas and a happy new year

[whatsitmean]

Greetings damo1,

My post above was mostly directed towards Unitarianism where Jesus is God. My question regarding John 3:16 is still an important one. What did our salvation cost God the Father that is the measure of His great love for the world? If our savior is a created being, then our salvation came at not cost to God and it is easily conceivable that God could blast us all to oblivion and start over with a new savior, a new heaven and a new earth. There is no evidence that God loves us. It is not just the verse, John 3:16 as a doctrine that is important, it is the very nature of our salvation and eternal relationship with our Creator.

Doesn

[whatsitmean]

read all of John 12 with out sifting gods word its a simple request whats it mean by the way strange usser name what does this mean whats it mean

I don

[HAZARD]

The question was, Did Jesus pray to Himself or our Father?

Jesus never ever prayed to Himself. He knew where the Father was, and the Father knew exactly where Jesus was..

Eleven times He prayed to His Father who was in Heaven, whilst He, Jesus was on the Earth.

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven, Jesus is not the Father, and the Father is not Jesus, they are two seperate beings and therefore do not and never have prayd to themselves.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally

[matthew4:4]

I know the question here is did Jesus pray to Himself but I noticed that it got onto the trinity issue. Let me just say that at first I didn't understand where people got the idea from cause its never said outright but the more and more I read over the scriptures the more clear it has become. Before that let me just say one thing. No one except for God can say whether someone is saved or not. I don't believe a Christian should say your going to hell because of this or that to anyone. It's just not right.

Anyway, I believe that Jesus the son, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit truly are one and there are many reasons why. It starts of in Genesis when God says that "Let us make man in Our image according to Our likeness". Who does it refer to when it says "Our". The first thing that would come to mind for me is that the human being is made up of body, soul, and spirit. Body=Christ, Soul=God, and Spirit=Holy Spirit. It's seems to perfectly match up with this part of scripture. Although, I'm sure you have heard this before. Anyway another big evidence given is in the titles referring to Jesus and God. In revelations Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega. God is also called the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus is called the Almighty just as God is called the Almighty. Throught the New Testament Jesus is called our Lord and Saviour. In the Old Testament God is called Lord and Saviour. Their are countless titles that they share. The only logical conclusion here withought having to make up and an idea is that they are the same persons.

Also, take a look at the things the Bible says they do. For instance, in the Old Testament it says that the Holy Spirit spoke through certain people. Then, took a look at Hebrews 1:1 where it says God spoke through these people. Then look at John 1 where it says that Jesus created everything. Flip over to Hebrews where it says God created all things. Theres no way to explain away all these things. If you need more examples I can show you more but lets not allow this to become any more than just a conversation. May the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth. Your brother in Christ, Matthew