Youth Suspended Over SKETCH of Gun

[Scarletprayers]

If you notice I said, we are told as individuals to do what is right. There is a reason why I put it that way. My vote (I hope) makes a difference, if not, the government that gets elected is because God wanted them there for His reasons, and mine were wrong. I firmly believe that God controls all of this and it doesn't matter what man wants or tries to do, we will never override what God wants done. To say otherwise is putting man in charge, saying his will can change God's will. Not gonna happen.

Scarlet I have no doubt that our ultimate destiny will be controlled by God, but what we do day to day (including what government we elect) is as a result of FREE WILL!

If there were no free will, what would be the point of anything? Do you believe that God placed all governments over all peoples when ever, where ever, for his own reasons?

Governments are not heavenly beings! They are made up of EARTHLY PEOPLE, and invented by man! God created all men in his image, all men equal. God did not EVER place any earthly man ABOVE any other man!

Governments are not divine, God is the only one who is devine. God trumps man ALWAYS.

There is no way ever that scripture says that God placed governments over people, that one is a real spin.

Bucks, yes scripture does say that no one is in a place of authority except by God's will, free will has NOTHING to do with God having the ultimate control. Who ever said government is divine........not me or anybody else here. I'm at work right now, so I can't get the scriptures to point this out, but since I know they've been pointed out to you before, and you say thats not what they actually mean, whats the point anyway. God placed, all the Prophets above other men, King Saul, King David.............thats just your spin for wanting to say we don't have to answer to anybody, so you wanna talk about real spin, read your post.

[Axxman]

Just because you imagine that "Jesus was silent about particular issues" doesn't mean that he condoned them. Why would Jesus advocate "social change"? He was not a politician, but a Messiah. You can't take the fact that Jesus put up with all this as a sign that he approved of it, even expected that we should!

I Never said Jesus approved of the brutal and evil gov't system he was born into. What I said was that Jesus wasn't actively involved in fighting that evil system. Not once did he condemn, rebuke, or cast judgement on the gov't inspite of its brutality. I never said we have to agree with everything the gov't does (even I don't do that, and I'm pretty pro-gov't.)

As for "as long as the gov't doesn't infringe on our personal reponsibilities to God, we are to honor it", government infringes on our personal responsibilities to God all the time - e.g. legal abortion, legal torture, trampling on our rights, taking our property. And if you truly believe what you claim, you are the victim, once again, of a twisted interpretation of scripture. One of the basic tenets of "living like Jesus would have us live" is HONESTY. And to serve an evil and corrupt government doesn't quite gel with that.

I don't know where you live, but in America I have NEVER been forced to have an abortion or torture anyone by the gov't. That would be legislating morality and I'm against that because secular gov't are flawed and we are to render our conscience to God. If the gov't is forcing you to personally sin against God, then you do not have to obey the gov't. The whole "trampling our rights" and "taking our property" issue is different. When I accepted Christ as my Saviour I wasn't promised a littany of "rights" and "property"...I was promised that my name would be written in the Book of Life. The idea of "rights" and "property" are earth based, not Kingdom based...Jesus told us NOT to worry about that kind of stuff.

You claim "We are to respect the authority that God has placed over us. The scriptures are CLEAR on this.". No, I absolutely will never accept this load of ........, and the scriptures are ABSOLUTELY NOT "clear on this" - this is an evil twist of the interpretation of scripture. The ONLY authority that is over us is GOD HIMSELF. If you have trouble understanding this, then consider: How can an institution that was created by the people to serve the people, and funded by the people, or wouldn't otherwise exist, be "placed over us"???????

Sorry Bucks, but I have the scriptures to back up my beliefs in this area. You do not. You can call it an 'evil twist' all you want, the fact remains that it is a recurring theme throughout the New Testament, from Jesus to the Apostles...

Rom 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God."

2 Pet 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether it be to the king, as supreme, or unto governors..."

1 Tim 2:1 "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men, for kings, and for all that are in authority"

Titus 3:1-2 "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men."

Do you have even ONE scripture to support your anti-gov't position? Outside of the two exemptions I gave (worship and conscience) there are NONE.

As for you having a problem with the first Amendment: Well the first Amendment says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Now how, exactly, does that flie in the face of God's commandments? My interpretation of that is only that "Government should make no law with regard to the practice of religion" which, of course, they shouldn't!

My problem isn't so much with the way the First Amendment as it's written. My problem is two-fold. One, it allows for the worship of false gods...Two, as such Christians shouldn't idolize the amendment the way they do. I am NOT surprised that a secular gov't espouses that ideology, nor do I blame them. However, I am surprised that Christians hold so closely to a document that does allow for the breaking of one of God's most repeated commands. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. You can be arrested for petty crimes in America...but breaking the first of God's commandments is considered a God given right, and is fully supported by the majority of American Christians. Only in America...lol.

[Axxman]

True enough... but Jesus said what He said about Ceasar. Not about a Constitutional Democratic Republic. The difference in how these forms of government exist is profound, and shouldn't be ignored when using this scripture. The US government exists by, for and of the people, meaning, in effect, that it's here because we let it be here. It holds our money in trust to do the will of the people -- not of the government.

While it's true that Paul essentially said you only have to fear authority if you're doing wrong, history reflects that he almost couldn't have been talking about government -- even the early Christians feared government -- and for doing RIGHT!

While I don't pretend to know the correct interpretation of the passages, I do believe the Bible to be infallible. Therefore, when an interpretation of Scripture fails to mesh with historical evidence, we have to rethink the interpretation. Hitler did not use his "sword" against injustice -- nor have countless other historical rulers. Not only was it right for Christians to display civil disobedience by harboring Jews and others targeted by the Nazi hate machine, it would have been, I believe, just as right for them to take up arms and aid the Allies in ousting Hitler.

Even if you take what Jesus said about Caesar's gov't out of the equation...we still have to accept what Peter and Paul wrote concerning our responsibilities to the governing authorities in general. Of course, some early Christians probably feared the gov't, but fear is not a Godly trait. God wants us to realize that He is in control of our earthly destiny and to not be afraid of whatever shenanigans the gov't is up to.

I have said time and time again that i think the American form of gov't is the best I know of. I've never heard of any secular earthly gov't that could rival it. I consider myself blessed by God to have been allowed to live here and now. However, I am also constantly reminded that the American form of gov't is not infallible, nor was it at its beginnings. It doesn't matter if you have Caesar, Napoleon, George Washington, or George Bush ... it is gov't set up and allowed by God, for His purpose, and His pleasure. As such we are commanded to respect, obey, pray, and show meekness towards those God has appointed.

Lastly...as I said before in reference to Mr Farahs article...the Nazi example is not a good one. God owns our conscience, we cannot sin against God. Turning Jews over to be murdered would be rendering to Caesar that which belongs to God. However...and this is a tough stance to take...i don't believe you have ANY scriptural evidence to say a person has the biblical authority to take up arms against the gov't...even a brutal gov't. When Simon Peter took up arms to fight the Roman soldiers...Jesus told him to put the sword away. Jesus reminded Simon that if he wanted to fight the Roman gov't he could call down legions of angels to do just that. Jesus told Simon, "He who draws his sword, dies by the sword." There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that we are not to fight the gov't.

However, as a flawed human, I can certainly say I would not have blamed them for wanting to fight that horrible injustice. It is not always easy to do the right thing.

[KeilanS]

Axxman, I agree with what you're saying, but again I'm having trouble expanding it to a more complicated issue, so I'd like your comment. Do you believe that what is happening in Iraq is right? The US is taking up arms against another government, do you think they are biblically correct in that?

[buckthesystem]

True enough... but Jesus said what He said about Ceasar. Not about a Constitutional Democratic Republic. The difference in how these forms of government exist is profound, and shouldn't be ignored when using this scripture. The US government exists by, for and of the people, meaning, in effect, that it's here because we let it be here. It holds our money in trust to do the will of the people -- not of the government.

While it's true that Paul essentially said you only have to fear authority if you're doing wrong, history reflects that he almost couldn't have been talking about government -- even the early Christians feared government -- and for doing RIGHT!

While I don't pretend to know the correct interpretation of the passages, I do believe the Bible to be infallible. Therefore, when an interpretation of Scripture fails to mesh with historical evidence, we have to rethink the interpretation. Hitler did not use his "sword" against injustice -- nor have countless other historical rulers. Not only was it right for Christians to display civil disobedience by harboring Jews and others targeted by the Nazi hate machine, it would have been, I believe, just as right for them to take up arms and aid the Allies in ousting Hitler.

Even if you take what Jesus said about Caesar's gov't out of the equation...we still have to accept what Peter and Paul wrote concerning our responsibilities to the governing authorities in general. Of course, some early Christians probably feared the gov't, but fear is not a Godly trait. God wants us to realize that He is in control of our earthly destiny and to not be afraid of whatever shenanigans the gov't is up to.

I have said time and time again that i think the American form of gov't is the best I know of. I've never heard of any secular earthly gov't that could rival it. I consider myself blessed by God to have been allowed to live here and now. However, I am also constantly reminded that the American form of gov't is not infallible, nor was it at its beginnings. It doesn't matter if you have Caesar, Napoleon, George Washington, or George Bush ... it is gov't set up and allowed by God, for His purpose, and His pleasure. As such we are commanded to respect, obey, pray, and show meekness towards those God has appointed.

Lastly...as I said before in reference to Mr Farahs article...the Nazi example is not a good one. God owns our conscience, we cannot sin against God. Turning Jews over to be murdered would be rendering to Caesar that which belongs to God. However...and this is a tough stance to take...i don't believe you have ANY scriptural evidence to say a person has the biblical authority to take up arms against the gov't...even a brutal gov't. When Simon Peter took up arms to fight the Roman soldiers...Jesus told him to put the sword away. Jesus reminded Simon that if he wanted to fight the Roman gov't he could call down legions of angels to do just that. Jesus told Simon, "He who draws his sword, dies by the sword." There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that we are not to fight the gov't.

However, as a flawed human, I can certainly say I would not have blamed them for wanting to fight that horrible injustice. It is not always easy to do the right thing.

It is a real twist to imagine that what Peter and Paul said was referring to modern governing "authorities" in general. I guess it is one thing in America, but I wonder what reaction you would get if you said to someone in the old Soviet Union, East Germany, Red China etc. "God has given these special people the power to do what ever they like to you and they are only accountable to God"! How do you suppose they would react?

As you think have bought into the scam that government is appointed by God, you'll have no trouble at all with the following analogy: Say a gang of people entered your house, held your family hostage at gun point and said to you "give us your bank account number and your ATM card and sign ownership of your house over to us or we will kill your wife and children" (how please don't try to tell me at this point that the government would never do anything like this as there are precedents). Then the leader of the gang added "you can't fight back because we are an authority over you and have been set up and appoiinted by God, so you have to show meekness, submit to our authority and obey. And you have to respect my position as leader of this gang". Now I guess you're thinking "of course, I wouldn't put up with that, I'd fight back". But as you believe that Paul was saying that GW Bush, and all the other leader of the "governing authorities" throughout the world have been put in place and appointed by God, why would you have a problem with accepting what this gang leader said? After all you cannot go picking and choosing which "authorities" are real and appointed by God, and which are not!

BTW as for "denouncing Jews to Hitler (or Ceasar) would be rendering unto Ceasar what is God's". I'll go even further than this and say that EVERYTHING BELONGS TO GOD AND NOTHING BELONGS TO CEASAR!

How could something created by God belong to a mortal person? You cannot, and do not I guess, dispute the fact that God created everything.

[patricia1]

True enough... but Jesus said what He said about Ceasar. Not about a Constitutional Democratic Republic. The difference in how these forms of government exist is profound, and shouldn't be ignored when using this scripture. The US government exists by, for and of the people, meaning, in effect, that it's here because we let it be here. It holds our money in trust to do the will of the people -- not of the government.

While it's true that Paul essentially said you only have to fear authority if you're doing wrong, history reflects that he almost couldn't have been talking about government -- even the early Christians feared government -- and for doing RIGHT!

While I don't pretend to know the correct interpretation of the passages, I do believe the Bible to be infallible. Therefore, when an interpretation of Scripture fails to mesh with historical evidence, we have to rethink the interpretation. Hitler did not use his "sword" against injustice -- nor have countless other historical rulers. Not only was it right for Christians to display civil disobedience by harboring Jews and others targeted by the Nazi hate machine, it would have been, I believe, just as right for them to take up arms and aid the Allies in ousting Hitler.

Even if you take what Jesus said about Caesar's gov't out of the equation...we still have to accept what Peter and Paul wrote concerning our responsibilities to the governing authorities in general. Of course, some early Christians probably feared the gov't, but fear is not a Godly trait. God wants us to realize that He is in control of our earthly destiny and to not be afraid of whatever shenanigans the gov't is up to.

I have said time and time again that i think the American form of gov't is the best I know of. I've never heard of any secular earthly gov't that could rival it. I consider myself blessed by God to have been allowed to live here and now. However, I am also constantly reminded that the American form of gov't is not infallible, nor was it at its beginnings. It doesn't matter if you have Caesar, Napoleon, George Washington, or George Bush ... it is gov't set up and allowed by God, for His purpose, and His pleasure. As such we are commanded to respect, obey, pray, and show meekness towards those God has appointed.

Lastly...as I said before in reference to Mr Farahs article...the Nazi example is not a good one. God owns our conscience, we cannot sin against God. Turning Jews over to be murdered would be rendering to Caesar that which belongs to God. However...and this is a tough stance to take...i don't believe you have ANY scriptural evidence to say a person has the biblical authority to take up arms against the gov't...even a brutal gov't. When Simon Peter took up arms to fight the Roman soldiers...Jesus told him to put the sword away. Jesus reminded Simon that if he wanted to fight the Roman gov't he could call down legions of angels to do just that. Jesus told Simon, "He who draws his sword, dies by the sword." There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that we are not to fight the gov't.

However, as a flawed human, I can certainly say I would not have blamed them for wanting to fight that horrible injustice. It is not always easy to do the right thing.

Wow ...has this topic changed from the original post. Acts chapter five the apostles were imprisoned, correct? They were imprisoned for doing the works of Jesus Our father. After release by Divine providence, they continued to preach and do the works they were called to do. They were brought back before the council and the great high priest said" We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this mans blood upon us" But Peter and the apostles answered and said, WE must obey God rather than men.

Same thing with meshach , shadrach and ebendiggo (SP) they refused to bow down to any other god.

So when the laws become such to binding of the Gospel it is okay to not submit to the government.

I have a problem when it comes to haveing to keep my family safe... Am i supposed to walk into death without trying to defend my daughter or my family? If someone comes in witha gun amI not to defend myself with the weapon of the choice they made?

I am aware Jesus says not to fear man, but to fear God. I know that although Moses thought He was correct by defending his people Jesus I believe, would have seen something less violent to happen. Those who are in the army have a right to kill because the government says it is but I do not have a right If I am being hounded because of christianity? Just wondering all this. Jesus will protect and defend me..He will send His angels to encamp around me. That is my belief. Is it foolish to not militarily defend people or is it the opposite. Jesus will condemn me for killing to protect others?

The 1st amendment like most laws made are double edged.

Preachers will be arrested for preching certain things soon. Do we remain to preach sin is sin and Jesus will wipe it all away once you accept Him as Lord and King over your , and in your Life or do we The same law that frees us remain to bind us.please answer me... I need to know. Is it all situational?! patricia

[KeilanS]

Patricia, in the case of the apostles, they kept preaching because that was a command made by Jesus. If they are commanded not to do it, then the human laws are forcing them to disobey God's laws. That is when we should stop submitting to the government. Right now the government has laws allowing evil, but they do not force us to commit evil acts, and while we should oppose that evil, we should still respect the authority God has placed over us.

Now if the government passed a law saying that everyone must pray to Allah five times a day, then it would be fair to resist, because that law would force us to violate one of God's laws.

[buckthesystem]

Patricia, in the case of the apostles, they kept preaching because that was a command made by Jesus. If they are commanded not to do it, then the human laws are forcing them to disobey God's laws. That is when we should stop submitting to the government. Right now the government has laws allowing evil, but they do not force us to commit evil acts, and while we should oppose that evil, we should still respect the authority God has placed over us.

Now if the government passed a law saying that everyone must pray to Allah five times a day, then it would be fair to resist, because that law would force us to violate one of God's laws.

Keilan what is it that has convinced you to buy into the idea that "God has placed the government over you and you are supposed to submit to it"?

And Patricia, I have often heard American people talk about "God given rights". Well, it seems that the government is intent on taking those rights away, they often take away one of the most basic rights - one which nobody will deny is a "God given right". That of the right to life!

So how do you reconcile this with "God made the government special and placed it over us, and we must submit to it"?

Gee, a lot of you won't have any trouble submitting to the antichrist when he comes along, will you? Of course I don't expect that the Antichrist will arrive and suddenly say "I am the antichrist, now I command you to break with scripture and worship me instead". As evening turns into night so slowly that some don't even notice it is getting dark, it will be the same with the antichrist. Things will slowly change and then one day you might turn round and realise "hey, we're doing the bidding of the antichrist" and by then it will be too late.

And to think it all started with a dangerous misinterpretation of scripture.

My opinion of course, open to anybody who can disprove any of this!

[Scarletprayers]

Sorry Bucks, but I have the scriptures to back up my beliefs in this area. You do not. You can call it an 'evil twist' all you want, the fact remains that it is a recurring theme throughout the New Testament, from Jesus to the Apostles...

Rom 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God."

2 Pet 2:13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether it be to the king, as supreme, or unto governors..."

1 Tim 2:1 "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men, for kings, and for all that are in authority"

Titus 3:1-2 "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men."

Do you have even ONE scripture to support your anti-gov't position? Outside of the two exemptions I gave (worship and conscience) there are NONE.

Sooooooo what does the above scripture mean to you then bucks??????

[buckthesystem]

Scarlet, quote: Sooooooo what does the above scripture mean to you then bucks????

______________________________________________________________

It is really late here Scarlet and I am really tired, so I will answer this properly tomorrow as I think it is quite an important topic. Particularly if you believe that we, or our kids or grandchildren, will be around at the second coming. I believe that we can't let such a dangerous belief get in the way of our salvation, and it just might.

Right now I must say that personally I believe that the "powers that be", "the authority" or what ever, refers to church leaders - not government. It is also important that these passages refer to "the office someone holds", not the person. I believe very strongly that God created everyone to be equal (Axxman has claimed otherwise) and not "some animals are more equal than others" (Orwell's "Animal Farm" - you know it?)

However, assuming that these Bible passages do mean something along the lines of what you seem to think they do, I'll quote a little bit out of an essay by Chuck Baldwin, which might clarify things a bit:

"Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's law to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority