Catholicism Examined

[Douay]

I guess if I had sinned against them...then yes I would like them to forgive me. But if the sins I committed had nothing to do with them then their forgiveness over those sins doesn't make sense.

So would you have to stop them and say "NO! you can only forgive me for the gossip I said about you" and if you didn't would you have sinned against God?

[refugepsa91]

I can't truthfully answer that....when I discuss issues with my friends they never have told me they forgive me. So I don't know what I would do if they started to say they forgive me for sins that had nothing to do with them if the first place. I always am told by them that God will forgive me all I have to do is ask and mean it in my heart.

the issue though that got me was if there is someone out there who hasn't forgiven you then your not forgiven by God. I just don't think that is true. If I misunderstood then tell me what the point really was.

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[Douay]

the issue though that got me was if there is someone out there who hasn't forgiven you then your not forgiven by God. I just don't think that is true. If I misunderstood then tell me what the point really was.

That isn't true, something else must have been meant.

I always am told by them that God will forgive me all I have to do is ask and mean it in my heart.

To me, that sounds like they have forgiven you, they don't hold ill will toward you anyway.

Show me how Catholic confession doesn't fulfill the requirement held by Protestants. Do we not confess our sins to God? Do we not direct prayers directly to Him asking for forgiveness? Is it not in the Catechism that we must be truly sorry?

If you don't like the fact that we go talk to a priest or do penance to make reparation for our sins to God, don't worry about it it doesn't apply to you. Is it not symbolic of the sacrifices made by those long ago? So what if we follow the Bible this way? It doesn't contradict your meaning of what it takes to ask God for forgiveness and recieve it, it completely contains everything you say one must do, it just goes farther. If I am wrong, point out how, noone has ever argued this point or agreed with me all I usually get is silence.

[refugepsa91]

Guess I did misunderstand then....I got the impression that if the preist you confess too says they don't forgive you then neither will God. Or that the priest had to say "I forgive you for your sins" before God could forgive you. If we both believe that ONLY God can choose to forgive and that that forgiveness is not based on a human persons...then well Douay I can say we have no problems on this topic.

As far as doing pennance...that I know absolutely nothing about so I can not and will not argue over something that I am uneducated on. K? I guess I just feel if you are truly sorry for what you have done God doesn't need you to make reperations. Did that make sense?

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[stevehut]

As far as doing pennance...that I know absolutely nothing about

I guess I just feel if you are truly sorry for what you have done God doesn't need you to make reperations.

Penance means that you do a good deed (prescribed by a priest) before you can be forgiven for your sins. In the 13-16th centuries, many people were allowed to pay money instead. That was called an indulgence. Martin Luther's objection to this practice was the most direct cause of the Reformation.

As for "reparations"? It's called repentance. Yes, this is something that God requires of us, both Old Testament and New.

[stevehut]

Guess I did misunderstand then....I got the impression that if the preist you confess too says they don't forgive you then neither will God.

No, you're not as confused as you think.

In Catholic doctrine, forgiveness comes in two forms. Forgiveness by God, and forgiveness by the church. Depending on the circumstances, a priest may claim one or the other, or both.

[refugepsa91]

Guess I did misunderstand then....I got the impression that if the preist you confess too says they don't forgive you then neither will God.

No, you're not as confused as you think.

In Catholic doctrine, forgiveness comes in two forms. Forgiveness by God, and forgiveness by the church. Depending on the circumstances, a priest may claim one or the other, or both.

thanks steve...but asking a church for forgiveness has been done by not only catholics but other denominations too. for example a steward of a church has been embezzling monies....this person gets caught....and they stand in front of the congregation and ask for forgiveness. I know this has happened. So is that person wrong? I guess my thing is that you ask forgiveness from the one or many you've done wrong. If you sin against a person then you apologize if you sin against the church then you also apologize....but if they don't forgive you God still will if you are truly remorseful for what you have done.

I will look further into this subject I will admit I am not very well versed in the catholic doctrine. All I know is when we as a group discuss ONE point at a time without throwing out all kinds of other questions its alot easier to follow don't ya think? and thanks for the definition of reperations...repentance...that word I understand

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[stevehut]

thanks steve...but asking a church for forgiveness has been done by not only catholics but other denominations too.

Yes, I understand your example of the steward. But that's not what I meant, because your example was about a sin directly against the church.

In the Roman Catholic Church, they believe that the institution is the sole dispenser of divine grace. The institution is the all-important thing. They claim for themselves a level of authority that God never intended.

[mobile21]

They go to confession to profess thier sin to man.

And I guess you telepathically confess your sins to our Lord Jesus Christ right????

Tell me something:

If Jesus Christ is God and God is omniscient (knows everything), then why you need to telepathically confess your sins to God if He already knows which ones are your sins????.

If Jesus Christ instituted confession via telepathy, why the Bible says:

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (Jn 20:23) ????

If Jesus gives to the disciples the power to forgive sins (hence, the biblical method of confession), how that system relates to the "telepathic confession" one???. Let's say one person confesses a sin to a disciple and the disciple does not forgive the sin but then the very same person confesses the very same sin telepathically......: is the sin forgiven or isn't according to Scripture???.

well all I have to say is I hope that a mere person is not in charge of a person being forgiven by God. I can tell you that there are some people that I am having a hard time forgiving....but I pray whether I forgive them or not God will...and I know there are some who may not have forgiven me for past happenings...does that mean that since they don't forgive me that God does not forgive me?!? Now this is an honest question...if there are people out there who hold grudges against us...does that mean that we can't be forgiven by God?

Love and Blessings,

Angel

Jn 20:23 refers to the power that Jesus Christ gives to His disciples (ministers) to forgive sins in His Name so it doesn't apply to the the forgiveness of the rest of us ppl.

[Douay]

Pretty good post, I got a kick out of it anyway.