Axxman Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2007 The thing is, church isn't an arcade, a movie theatre, or a gym. Church is a place to connect with God, fellowship with others, and grow in Christ. I am not an "old person" and I still think church is a place that we should respect God, and those who are there to worship. Kids can learn a lot with the self discipline sometimes required within the church. That does not mean that church has to be boring, but there are times when its appropriate to have fun and be wild (for example, most churches encourage this during their musical worship), and there are also times to be silent so that you and others are able to fully hear and feel the word of God. I'm sorry, but if we as parents cannot get our children into church without the use of bribery (ie video games) then we have a serious problem. Back when I was a kid, when our parents told us to get dressed for church and be apropriate during the service, we listened. And *gasp* they didn't have to use any type of entertainment to get us to do it. Would I say that I'm a better christian for it- Absolutely. Church is a time for praying, learning the word of God, and respecting those around us. Call me old fashioned, but Church shouldn't have to be a spectacle in order to get people to come. That wasn't how it worked in the bible, and that shouldn't be how it works now. Sierra...like you, I had a Christian family who went to church and we acted appropriately during church. Unfortunately...not alot of kids have that. As a former youth pastor I can tell you that I had MANY children come to church regularly without their parents. I considered it part of my ministry to be such a force in the lives of the children that it would be a positive witness for their parents. It works! We would have many fun nights, but there was also a time for learning and sharing and growing. Playing videogames, or listening to music, or watching a movie doesn't disrupt that. Its not about being a 'spectacle' or "bribery"...its about reaching people where they are. You know as well as I do that you won't reach ANY kids by going up to them and saying "cut your hair, put on nice clothes, come inside and be quiet, unless we sing." Now I realize that is an extreme representation of your view...but you should realize that words like lure, bribery, and spectacle create an extreme representation of my views. Just because you had a solid christian upbringing doesn't mean that everyone does...and it also doesn't mean that because it worked for you, it will work for everyone. Videogames are no more extreme than tag (I wasn't allowed to play tag either, BTW.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sierra21 Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 160 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,000 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/30/1983 Share Posted October 15, 2007 The thing is, church isn't an arcade, a movie theatre, or a gym. Church is a place to connect with God, fellowship with others, and grow in Christ. I am not an "old person" and I still think church is a place that we should respect God, and those who are there to worship. Kids can learn a lot with the self discipline sometimes required within the church. That does not mean that church has to be boring, but there are times when its appropriate to have fun and be wild (for example, most churches encourage this during their musical worship), and there are also times to be silent so that you and others are able to fully hear and feel the word of God. I'm sorry, but if we as parents cannot get our children into church without the use of bribery (ie video games) then we have a serious problem. Back when I was a kid, when our parents told us to get dressed for church and be apropriate during the service, we listened. And *gasp* they didn't have to use any type of entertainment to get us to do it. Would I say that I'm a better christian for it- Absolutely. Church is a time for praying, learning the word of God, and respecting those around us. Call me old fashioned, but Church shouldn't have to be a spectacle in order to get people to come. That wasn't how it worked in the bible, and that shouldn't be how it works now. Sierra...like you, I had a Christian family who went to church and we acted appropriately during church. Unfortunately...not alot of kids have that. As a former youth pastor I can tell you that I had MANY children come to church regularly without their parents. I considered it part of my ministry to be such a force in the lives of the children that it would be a positive witness for their parents. It works! We would have many fun nights, but there was also a time for learning and sharing and growing. Playing videogames, or listening to music, or watching a movie doesn't disrupt that. Its not about being a 'spectacle' or "bribery"...its about reaching people where they are. You know as well as I do that you won't reach ANY kids by going up to them and saying "cut your hair, put on nice clothes, come inside and be quiet, unless we sing." Now I realize that is an extreme representation of your view...but you should realize that words like lure, bribery, and spectacle create an extreme representation of my views. Just because you had a solid christian upbringing doesn't mean that everyone does...and it also doesn't mean that because it worked for you, it will work for everyone. Videogames are no more extreme than tag (I wasn't allowed to play tag either, BTW.) I can absolutely appreciate what you're saying here, and I commend you for your efforts. I agree that kids should be allowed to fellowship, including all of what you say. The thing I have a problem with is using this "fellowship" (I'm going to use this label instead since you've taken offence to the other labels I've employed) as a way to draw kids in. As I said in my last post- kids aren't going to learn about God unless theyre truly interested. I think many youth programs are wasting their money on "fellowship" because it's not going to draw people unless they want to be drawn. Does that make sense?? I'm sure I was more clear in my previous post, I'm not sure if you've gotten a chance to read it yet though (I think we're both posting at the same time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted October 15, 2007 from damo1 i already left sevral posts my self i am an out reach worker and i hang out with youth until 4 am eric and axxman said it bluntly and so have i what you should be asking your self is why young people are not being attracted to church instead off attacking those that use these methods to reach out to young people that would not step foot with in a church what works for one person does not work for others i hold talks in the open not in church is this wrong of me doing this to wear i know these young people as i know thees young ones will not step foot into a church to their way they them selves have been treated i already left some thing for some one to read as if any one wants to go out with me i say fine but i ask them this question what is your attitude like and by me saying this some leaders i know when they are home and away from their roles in the more traditional churches swear just like a non christian and the kids i have gotten to know are not stupid and they will not listen to some one who says they are a christian and then try to bring in a short message this is half your problem then your other problem is this say you have kids that have had a church up bringing with good parents would you as a parent trust another young kid around your kids i have had mothers come up to me saying i dont want these young men cracking on to my daughters i will let them come to youth group or an activity but you are to promise me this will not happen when i have seen young christian men doing this to new young christian females trying to impress them so by me going to wear these youth are is it wrong of me is my church dead because they wil not step foot into a church i am doing what jesus did when he walked the streets he found him self on when ever he came into a new comunity he did not go to the church or to the leaders that ran those churches that wear in those towns he went wear he new people would be and did what most would not do the hard thing i find as an out reach worker most of these young youth i know at one stage in their lives have given their hearts to god and because they have been let down not one person followed up on them or rang to see how they wear until we leaders get together and start looking at the real picture its pointless complaining about some who use video games to reach out to a younger generation that will not step foot into a church i sit at 3am or 4am or even around midnight and i have a group talk with those that i now then i bring a short message and i even get them to share wear they are at and i even pray when one asks me to pray for them i never force anything on these troubled youth now some are coming to church because i went out of my way to meet with them and show them not all christians are like this and they wil not be let down in our church the music threw worship on a saturday night is a little bit diffrent to what we play on sunday and their are no dress codes that means they wear what they feel comfterbal in and most know they wil not be told to shut up threw a short service or some one giving a testimony in a youth group i use music like from creed with arms wide open and from other christian bands and this works we have on our screen of guys doing stunts on moter bikes threw sand dunes and guys on surf boards and even smash up derby nights being played on the big screen in our mens out reach group we watch football and so on as this is what attracs people and you can still bring in gods word we even go fishing and do other things like ten pin bowling or hiking or camping i even do this with the young people that want to do this and i see no wrong in doing this i have even had other youth speak and i am even looking at geting police officers i know to come in and speak just because one thing might work for one person it does not mean it will work for the rest and you need to be open in how you bring in gods word to young people i know of sevral guys that sleep threw the morning message and their wifes are having to hit them in the ribs when they start to snore loud so lets talk on how to attrac those that will not step foot in and see what can be done that means even geting the youth to also do some out reach work and not leave it up always to the youth pastor or youth leaders to do wear i wil be going back to it is an active youth group and the youth also go out on out reach to draw those that do not want to step into a church as these youth i know in my old church when they pray they mean what they pray and they are hungry to see their younger generation come back to church instead of being on the out side the youth need to be wear they are comfterbal and wear they them selves can grow as an indervidual as these young men and women wil be leading our churche when we get old or will we stil even be holding the reigns until it is just left up to us old people ? 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sierra21 Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 160 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,000 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/30/1983 Share Posted October 15, 2007 from damo1 i already left sevral posts my self i am an out reach worker and i hang out with youth until 4 am eric and axxman said it bluntly and so have i what you should be asking your self is why young people are not being attracted to church instead off attacking those that use these methods to reach out to young people that would not step foot with in a church what works for one person does not work for others i hold talks in the open not in church is this wrong of me doing this to wear i know these young people as i know thees young ones will not step foot into a church to their way they them selves have been treated i already left some thing for some one to read as if any one wants to go out with me i say fine but i ask them this question what is your attitude like and by me saying this some leaders i know when they are home and away from their roles in the more traditional churches swear just like a non christian and the kids i have gotten to know are not stupid and they will not listen to some one who says they are a christian and then try to bring in a short message this is half your problem then your other problem is this say you have kids that have had a church up bringing with good parents would you as a parent trust another young kid around your kids i have had mothers come up to me saying i dont want these young men cracking on to my daughters i will let them come to youth group or an activity but you are to promise me this will not happen when i have seen young christian men doing this to new young christian females trying to impress them so by me going to wear these youth are is it wrong of me is my church dead because they wil not step foot into a church i am doing what jesus did when he walked the streets he found him self on when ever he came into a new comunity he did not go to the church or to the leaders that ran those churches that wear in those towns he went wear he new people would be and did what most would not do the hard thing i find as an out reach worker most of these young youth i know at one stage in their lives have given their hearts to god and because they have been let down not one person followed up on them or rang to see how they wear until we leaders get together and start looking at the real picture its pointless complaining about some who use video games to reach out to a younger generation that will not step foot into a church i sit at 3am or 4am or even around midnight and i have a group talk with those that i now then i bring a short message and i even get them to share wear they are at and i even pray when one asks me to pray for them i never force anything on these troubled youth now some are coming to church because i went out of my way to meet with them and show them not all christians are like this and they wil not be let down in our church the music threw worship on a saturday night is a little bit diffrent to what we play on sunday and their are no dress codes that means they wear what they feel comfterbal in and most know they wil not be told to shut up threw a short service or some one giving a testimony in a youth group i use music like from creed with arms wide open and from other christian bands and this works we have on our screen of guys doing stunts on moter bikes threw sand dunes and guys on surf boards and even smash up derby nights being played on the big screen in our mens out reach group we watch football and so on as this is what attracs people and you can still bring in gods word we even go fishing and do other things like ten pin bowling or hiking or camping i even do this with the young people that want to do this and i see no wrong in doing this i have even had other youth speak and i am even looking at geting police officers i know to come in and speak just because one thing might work for one person it does not mean it will work for the rest and you need to be open in how you bring in gods word to young people i know of sevral guys that sleep threw the morning message and their wifes are having to hit them in the ribs when they start to snore loud so lets talk on how to attrac those that will not step foot in and see what can be done that means even geting the youth to also do some out reach work and not leave it up always to the youth pastor or youth leaders to do wear i wil be going back to it is an active youth group and the youth also go out on out reach to draw those that do not want to step into a church as these youth i know in my old church when they pray they mean what they pray and they are hungry to see their younger generation come back to church instead of being on the out side the youth need to be wear they are comfterbal and wear they them selves can grow as an indervidual as these young men and women wil be leading our churche when we get old or will we stil even be holding the reigns until it is just left up to us old people ? Okay, I never "attacked" video games or anything of that nature. All I'm trying to get at is that we should not have to utilize secular employs as a way of drawing youth into the church. There is a reason God provided us with the Bible, and we should be utilizing this tool above all else. If you read my other post you would see that I don't believe that videogames will ever truly "recruit" youth into the church. Those who are there to learn about God will learn about God and those who are there to play video games will play videogames. End of story. I think I've made this same statement about 3 times already...I don't think I could be more clear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted October 15, 2007 There is a lot of over reaction going on here. I said in my first post that I don't object to the playing of video games, but there is a time and place for everything. Furthermore if playing vidoes in church to get the youth along isn't a ploy or a bribe, what do you call it.......strategy? Try reversing the role. Would some of you shouting the odds about it's okay to play videos in church, take your bibles down to a video games parlour and and try and tell them about Jesus......I doubt it. If some of you want to show and play any kind of games, do it in your own time in a different venue, but don't lumber the true worshippers who go to church for the right reasons with a bunch of noisy kids playing games. My wife told our two girls about Jesus and how to pray before they could walk.Most churches have a building where the sunday school kids can go, so when church is over and the kids have gone home, get your youth leaders to stay behind and have your video games, but definitely not during the sunday services. Damo has the right take. Go and visit the kids on their own turf, that is if you can tear yourself away from the tv or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisWordIsSufficient Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 342 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2007 my goodness are you insane?! GOSPEL REDUCTIONISM for the sake of being seeker friendly.... BEING "RELEVANT" and "keeping up with culture" and sacrificing obeying the word through it, is an abomination. makes me sick. these kids dont need to feel comfortable and familiar... they need JESUS. these kids dont need to be entertained... they need JESUS... these kids dont need to be babysat... they need JESUS these kids dont need more of the same thing that the world offers.. THEY NEED JESUS CHRIST!!!! HE IS ENOUGH! get to know Him, ask Him how to show people the truth, and you wont need to compromise what God's word says, to "reach people". lets see, jesus didn't use anything to get his message across right?? He didn't feed 5000 people? he didn't heal the sick? lots of showmanship when you go around and blind people can see, lame can walk, shoot he even raised the dead! Now thats a attention getter you know! No comparison, Brother. The Miracles that Jesus did were not done for entertainment or showmanship, but to show the Love and Power of God. I'm shocked you'd say this, or am I gullible enough to not see your joke?!?!?!? Exactly. absolutely no comparison, how can you even try to compare a worldly strategy with reasons of luring kids into the church, to Jesus Christ's miracles that were acts of compassion?! He didnt perform miracles to get people to listen to Him or to get people to believe or to make people flock to Him!!!! He did them in pure compassion, and in obedience to the Father. There was no ulterior motive. John 10:24-26 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[a] tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. Matthew 13:58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief. If Jesus Himself could do no mighty works because of unbelief, how do you think a little worldly "halo gathering" is going to stirr up any mighty works like salvation?! Jesus Christ is the power unto salvation. Him and Him alone. there is no "lure" there is no second choice. Preach the gospel! JESUS IS LORD! no wonder kids come to church and leave unchanged. they dont encounter God, they encounter more of the same cr@p that the world offers them, just packaged more neatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treasure Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 272 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,338 Content Per Day: 0.65 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 I have no problem at all with taking the Gospel to people where they are. This should be done more often. If people don't have a way to get to church, go get them. It's not that hard to figure out. What I don't agree with is using this, or any other video game to "lure" (and yes, I was the one that brought "lure" into the mix, or did I say "recruit" ) people to church. The word lure means a decoy; live or esp. artificial bait used in fishing or trapping. So we use this video game (or other similar venues) as decoys to trap people? The word decoy is defined as a person who entices or lures another person or thing, as into danger, a trap, or the like. So the church, in this case would be the dangerous trap and Halo 3, the decoy. In another article about this same thing that I posted on my blog actually quotes a youth minister as saying youth are the fish and this video game is the bait. I don't want my teenager being captured by anyone's hook. Like the Scripture I mentioned before says, if God is lifted up, He will draw people to Him. Why not exalt Him and trust Him to bring them to church or show us the tools that He wants us to use to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliyahuw Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,263 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/17/1961 Share Posted October 15, 2007 All I'm trying to get at is that we should not have to utilize secular employs as a way of drawing youth into the church. Why not? Can't God use secular employs to do his will? How do you suggest getting kids interested in what God has to say that have never heard the bible? THey can't know about God and salvation unless they hear about it first. Their not going to come into a church seeking unless they have heard there is something else to seek. Use something their interested in, something they have heard about before, something they are familiar with to get their interest then introduce them to the bible. Your never going to get a kid into a church by going up to them and saying come to church sunday. Their going to look at you like a calf looking at a new gate. If you read my other post you would see that I don't believe that videogames will ever truly "recruit" youth into the church. Those who are there to learn about God will learn about God and those who are there to play video games will play videogames. End of story. I think I've made this same statement about 3 times already...I don't think I could be more clear... How do you know that those who come for video games only come for video games. Try going to one of the youth group events sometime and watch what goes on! You will be surprised. These kids come get into the game, then when you cut off the game, tell them lets get serious here and listen to the reason were all here, they settle down and get to business! God uses anything to spread his word! Meet the needs of the people before spreading his word. This is a common theme in the bible. Jesus did it, so did the apostles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliyahuw Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,263 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/17/1961 Share Posted October 15, 2007 If some of you want to show and play any kind of games, do it in your own time in a different venue, but don't lumber the true worshippers who go to church for the right reasons with a bunch of noisy kids playing games. Define true worshipper! You don't think a person can worship God outside of sitting down shutting up and listening to someone preaching their opinion about what God has to say. OH wow, thats what happens in a youth group when you use video game nights to bring them in! they sit down shut up and listen to Gods word after having a bit of fun. I know that the church i go to has foozeball tables, ping pong tables, electric guitars, drums, keyboards ect in the basement for the youth group to use. Gee, i didn't know making a joyful noise was limited to "singing in the choir". I thought a joyful noise included laughter, having fun in a setting like the youth groups provide. My wife told our two girls about Jesus and how to pray before they could walk.Most churches have a building where the sunday school kids can go, so when church is over and the kids have gone home, get your youth leaders to stay behind and have your video games, but definitely not during the sunday services. Whats the difference between sunday services and monday/tues/wed/thurs/frid/saturday when Gods word is taught?? There is no difference from what i can see. sorry but i can't see any difference in a sunday service and anytime you teach the word of God in any setting. Does it really matter if you sit down sing a song, put money into the offering, listen tothe choir, then listen to a preacher getup and preach or if you have a group that sings some songs clapping their hands a bit, getting into it, then sitting down and listening to the sermon, maybe discussing what is being taught between them??? Its a different format. I go to church in the morning at 8am. We have a group of young folks up front playing instruments, guitars, drums, piano, singing, folks get up and clap their hands with the song, wave arms whatever, then we have a sermon, then collect offering as we leave the door. The second service is the traditional, dirge playing music as you filter in set down, and wait quietly for the hymns and choir to sing, then sing i think about 4 or 5 hymns, pass the offering, then listen to the sermon. One is traditional the other is early service. Both services got the same message, both brought in people together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treasure Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 272 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,338 Content Per Day: 0.65 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Their not going to come into a church seeking unless they have heard there is something else to seek. Something else? What's wrong with the simple, practical application of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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