JB Horn Posted November 4, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 4, 2007 Tell me how many of the remote tribe on that island off of Africa are without sin? JB None of them. Are you without sin? No you are not. Do you go to heaven? Yes you do. Why? Because you fall under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Do these hypothetical tribesmen fall under the Grace of Christ? No. Have they had the oppurtunity to fall under that Grace? No they haven't. So do they go to hell? I certainly hope not. That would make me a bit suspicious of God's mercy (and logic). There, I just saved us from having a long conversation by stating the entire thing in one post. Unfortunately for your point of view, Jesus said "NO MAN cometh to the father but by me." The gospel message is quite clearly written in the Stars. It was decoded by the ancients long before Jesus came. Why do you think the "wise men" (astrologers) sought Him? They sought him because they were told to. By Herod. Read it... once in a while 1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of King Herod, wise men from the east arrived unexpectedly in Jerusalem, 2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him." 3 When King Herod heard this, he was deeply disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 So he assembled all the chief priests and scribes of the people and asked them where the Messiah would be born. 5 "In Bethlehem of Judea," they told him, "because this is what was written through the prophet: 6 And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the leaders of Judah: because out of you will come a Leader who will shepherd My people Israel. " 7 Then Herod secretly summoned the wise men and learned from them the time when the star appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the child. When you find Him, report back to me so that I too can go and worship Him." It seems to me they were seeking Him before they ever met Herod. But hey you're the expert on the Bible not me. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted November 7, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Christendom has a problem. It says that when man dies he either goes to heaven or hell. To get to heaven one must be born of the Spirit of God which of course is only possible through Christ. So the natural consequence of this belief is that if one is not born again he must go to hell. Strange isn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aphrodite Posted November 7, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2007 (edited) My beliefs about the divine are uncertain or changing, but I don't believe that one must necessarily know about Jesus or believe in the Christian presentation of his character and message in order to go to heaven/eternal bliss/whatever. I believe the divine must be merciful, and such an exclusion to me would not be merciful (or understanding, or compassionate). Edited November 7, 2007 by aphrodite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan4257 Posted November 7, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 421 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2007 My beliefs about the divine are uncertain or changing, but I don't believe that one must necessarily know about Jesus or believe in the Christian presentation of his character and message in order to go to heaven/eternal bliss/whatever. I believe the divine must be merciful, and such an exclusion to me would not be merciful (or understanding, or compassionate). Well of course you are right, and those who think that there is no alternative way of being in heaven except from a belief in Jesus Christ ignore the facts like those of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ for us is the only way is because that is the choice we are given. It is the only way for us. God, of whom it is said that it is not his will that any should perish, has alternatives, and we within our recognition of Jesus Christ as our opportunity, should be the first to leave it to our loving Heavenly Father to have other things up his sleeve for others. There is no doubt that God is merciful, in the sense that we commonly use that word. God's mercy is quite obvious in all that he does to encourage us to be with him in heaven. When we, or those from whatever background and culture and by whatever means reject that opportunity to be with God it does not reflect on God's mercy, but on the sadness that so many do not accept. The very fact that the love of God through Jesus Christ dwells in us guarantees our hope that a loving Heavenly Father has plans for all those who do not have our opportunity to know him. Were it not so, there would be reason to question the depth or genuineness of the love of God that is in the hearts of those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ. The essential and crucial thing for Christians is that we argue all our interpretations of scripture, as you have done, from that fact that God is love and we are an echo of that love. Any other way is only a contradiction of what we say we believe. Our loving Heavenly Father is not a theoretical argument for those who are in Christ Jesus. He is a relationship, and that relationship is love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted November 7, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Well we are trying to put our human notions into God, it simply won't work. We know God is merciful, but we also know that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. If it were not true than Christ died and rose for no reason or it says that He only died for some, both of those thins cannot be true. But I do agree we cannot know for certain how His grace will be worked out among those who have not heard His Gospel except to say as you have already pointed out that He is a merciful and loving God. We have hints though. Scripture says that many will run from the light because they don't want their deeds exposed. We can't sin in heaven, it is a holy place, for those who love sin and enjoy sin, they won't want heaven they will choose their own pride and their own pleasures over Christ and His offer of grace. Revelation talks about how the humans at the end of the world will be so filled with hate and greed and sin that they will refuse to repent, even when directly faced with Christ knowing the results of thier decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 7, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2007 As I posted some time ago in a thread called "Age of Accountability": We can never 100% know what is the heart of God. We can only see what He shows us. I am convinced that we all will be surprised when we see who has been forgiven. We will also rejoice with all our heart. God is greater then we can know while still here in this life. We can never judge what God will do for those who had never heard of Him, but only knew there is a God through viewing and experiencing creation. Why argue about something we have no control over and will never truly know until we die? Love In Christ, OneLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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