other one Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,260 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,988 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread. #1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only? #2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be? #3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father? These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them. Answer these question if you can kansasdad,as ovedya is the only one willing to attempt it so far. Unless you kansasdad are the one ignoring the truth,you should have some answers. To question one I would only say that there are a lot of things that the apostles didn't understand that they were told. I'll have to do some looking to see if that is all they baptized in. As for question two it will take a bit of time to compile an answer for it isn't simple. As for question three I would only ask if the doctor that is artificially inseminating a mother would be considered the father. One can not say from the things written in scripture that the Spirit was the Father of Christ. It's getting late for me tonight and I'm getting to tired to look up all the scripture that I need to answer your second question. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As for question two, #2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be? Matt 10:19-20 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. KJV One might say that this is saying that the Spirit is the Father, and on the surface I would agree..... however when there are seemingly discrepancies in the Bible I have learned to return to the original language to see if there is something there that could be the prblem. The word "of" in spirit of your Father is: [humon] it's strongs word #5216 and can be translated either of, or from. The KJV uses the word of in this passage however in the Book of John when Jesus is speaking of the Spirit and what/who it is tells us that it is the Spirit which if from the Father. And the greek wording is not something that could be one or the other..... it's from. It also goes on to say that the Spirit will not speak anything on it's own, but only what it hears, which further shows that The Holy Spirit is from the Father. If the Holy Spirit "is" the Father then why would the Spirit only show/tell us what it hears and nothing of itself. John 14:16 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you for ever; KJV John 14:26 26 But the Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. It is also intresting that it says that it will not be you that speaks, but the Spirit that Speaks within you. As for Mark: Mark 13:11 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. KJV It basically says the very same thing..... it is the Spirit that is speaking within or through you. Both are saying the same thing, but the first is telling you that the Spirit is from the Father. As for Luke: Luke 21:14-15 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. NKJV Same thing, Jesus is saying that He'll give you a mouth the wisdom of what to speak..... and that Mouth is the Holy Spirit...... and remember in John 14:16 that Jesus prayed and the Father sent us the Holy Spirit. None of this would make any sense at all if all three are the same thing We have one God..... The Father..... and one Lord, His Son Jesus that we call The Christ..... and the Son asked the Father for something to comfort us and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and be a direct contact with both the Father and Jesus. The only problem there really is pertains to what I brought up a long time ago....... what does the word "God" in Greek and Hebrew really mean..... that we must have only one of and call all three if them God and that we have one God. Secret to this whole discussion is "What does the greek/hebrew word God mean. You can't finish this discussion without defining that word. I agree the spirit of the Father is the Holy spirit and Jesus speaks through us by his Holy Spirit they are all 1 and the same as I have been saying, but trinitarians separate them. The text clearly states the Father is the only God ,you can try and twist it around all you want by when others see that you have to twist scripture to make your point they will realize it is because you are wrong. The Bible says that the Father is "THE GOD" it also says that Jesus existed as "god" before he sat that aside and became a man, but it never says that Jesus is/was/will be, "THE GOD" They are only one as we are one..... they are not the same thing, they just act and think in total unison as Jesus prayed that we would do with he and the Father through him. If you are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same thing, then you can say that I am/will be "The God" as I become one with Jesus as he prayed to his father. This oneness stuff makes so many parts of scripture totally silly if you say that Jesus and the Father are the same entity. 1 Cor 15:24-28 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV I would have to reject the thought that the Father and Jesus is the same thing in different forms just from this one set of scripture..... it simply can't be if the Bible is not a silly piece of writing. Jesus being given all authority by himself and being subject to himself and not for a while and again subject to himself...... And then there is the Holy Spirit that will only tell us what he hears and nothing from himself...... what kind of deal is that if the Spirit is the Father..... No my friend, while I do not go along with the attributes that Trinitarians give the three, they are separate entities working together for us..... and we would be hopeless without all three. Without the Spirit we have no communication with Jesus or the Father, without Jesus we would not qualify to ever have anything to do witht the Father, and without the Father we are not here. But they are seperate entities or scripture is silly in the way it's written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,260 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,988 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 I'm seeing your viewpoint......(not necessarily agreeing)....but what I just dont understand is how you conclude that the name Yeshua or "Jesus" is the name of God and not Yahweh. PR Jesus is the man born of mary,but God is the one who became the man. Yahwey is the name of God the Father not necessarily the name of the son. Jesus is the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit. Yahwey was revealed in Yeshua. The son is the MAN, The Father became. Yeshua is that man,Yahwey is the Father. They are not separate ''beings'' but distinct through Yeshua's humanity. I would disagree that the name Yahwey is the name of the Father...... Yahwey is the name of what Jesus was before ne sat it aside and became a human. Moses, Aaron and 72 other people say that they saw the God of Israel back in the days of Moses.... and Jesus says that no man has seen the Father. So what Moses dealt with was not the Father. Rember that the Book of John tells us that Jesus as the Word was in the form of God, but thought it not anything to be equal to God so gladly sat that aside to be the "man Jesus". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread. #1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only? #2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be? #3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father? These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them. Answer these question if you can kansasdad,as ovedya is the only one willing to attempt it so far. Unless you kansasdad are the one ignoring the truth,you should have some answers. Interesting as I am reading through Acts to see exactly which verse you are referring to and I run across the words of Peter: 12 But Peter seeing, made answer to the people: Ye men of Israel, why wonder you at this? or why look you upon us, as if by our strength or power we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus, whom you indeed delivered up and denied before the face of Pilate, when he judged he should be released. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you. 15 But the author of life you killed, whom God hath raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. God the father glorified his Son The Author of life you killed, Was the author of life around before Jesus was on earth....yes Yet he was killed. to hold on to your theory then God the father was killed.....hardly.. Then we see that God raised someone from the dead...Oh yes it was the Author of life, the Holy one. The same person that was killed. Interesting how scripture supports the trinity every time you look. God Bless, K.D. Whats your point,I dont think any one is denying that Jesus Christ the man born of mary is God's son Again you are taking only part of the scripture and ignoring the rest. Jesus in human form only could not also be the Author of life. Scripture clearly shows that Jesus the author of life has been around before human life was created. Yet scripture tells us that we killed the Author of life and the Author of life is the same person as Jesus. So scripture tells us that Gods Son has been here from before the beginning of time. Then we see that God glorified his Son who has been here forever. It makes no sense to say God glorified himself and then called himself his own Son. You keep trying to separate Jesus the Man from Jesus God. As I said before when you do this and make Jesus human with Gods spirit dwelling inside of him you open up the old heresy that we all can be just as Jesus. Sounds just like the ploy the anti-Christ uses in claiming to be Jesus. Your theory just opens that door very nicely. I notice you still have not answered Greg and explained why God would use the word us and our in genesis. Within your theory this makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 The Bible says that the Father is "THE GOD" it also says that Jesus existed as "god" before he sat that aside and became a man, but it never says that Jesus is/was/will be, "THE GOD" They are only one as we are one..... they are not the same thing, they just act and think in total unison as Jesus prayed that we would do with he and the Father through him. If you are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same thing, then you can say that I am/will be "The God" as I become one with Jesus as he prayed to his father. This oneness stuff makes so many parts of scripture totally silly if you say that Jesus and the Father are the same entity. I agree with your first statement that THE GOD is the Father and Jesus existed as God b4 incarnation,but I notice you used a lower case g for God and in your explaination made Jesus outr to be an lower god from the Father or another god than the Father,I dont think even your trinitarian friends would back you on this on kansas. Jesus is a man ''The Son'' while God is ''The Father'' if Jesus is or was God thn he is or was the Father because there is no God other than the Father. Don't try to apply meaning to typing errors, but most notable is that I didn't say this, you quoted from "other one" and ignored my post completely. Explain why God would exalt himself and then call himself his son. Your theory just causes confusion. And again you completely ignore scripture that says the author of life is the same person we killed. Yes obviously we killed the human part of Jesus but there is still the clear distinction that Jesus and the Author of Life are one and the same, and that the Son coexist with the Father, for the Father refers to the Son before incarnation. Again I point out that you have just ignored parts of scripture and then just restate your position. We know your position, but it does not line up with all scripture. You are pointing to an incomplete picture that ignores the whole truth. You need to look at all scripture has to say not just pick and choose a few that support your theory. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 The Bible says that the Father is "THE GOD" it also says that Jesus existed as "god" before he sat that aside and became a man, but it never says that Jesus is/was/will be, "THE GOD" They are only one as we are one..... they are not the same thing, they just act and think in total unison as Jesus prayed that we would do with he and the Father through him. If you are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same thing, then you can say that I am/will be "The God" as I become one with Jesus as he prayed to his father. This oneness stuff makes so many parts of scripture totally silly if you say that Jesus and the Father are the same entity. I agree with your first statement that THE GOD is the Father and Jesus existed as God b4 incarnation,but I notice you used a lower case g for God and in your explaination made Jesus outr to be an lower god from the Father or another god than the Father,I dont think even your trinitarian friends would back you on this on kansas. Jesus is a man ''The Son'' while God is ''The Father'' if Jesus is or was God thn he is or was the Father because there is no God other than the Father. Don't try to apply meaning to typing errors, but most notable is that I didn't say this, you quoted from "other one" and ignored my post completely. Explain why God would exalt himself and then call himself his son. Your theory just causes confusion. And again you completely ignore scripture that says the author of life is the same person we killed. Yes obviously we killed the human part of Jesus but there is still the clear distinction that Jesus and the Author of Life are one and the same, and that the Son coexist with the Father, for the Father refers to the Son before incarnation. Again I point out that you have just ignored parts of scripture and then just restate your position. We know your position, but it does not line up with all scripture. You are pointing to an incomplete picture that ignores the whole truth. You need to look at all scripture has to say not just pick and choose a few that support your theory. God Bless, K.D. That is exactly the process used to come up with the trinity doctrine K.D. The pick and choose method. The trinity doctrine does nothing to explain the nature of the godhead and it is very much a private interpretation of the scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 21, 2007 The trinity doctrine does nothing to explain the nature of the godhead and it is very much a private interpretation of the scripture. Let's be fair: no doctrine (or teaching) which attempts to explain or reconcile these two aspects of God's nature is adequate. Yet ignoring either aspect in favor of the other is incorrect. I recommend Robert Govett's essay on "The Twofoldness of the Divine Truth in the Scriptures." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I'm seeing your viewpoint......(not necessarily agreeing)....but what I just dont understand is how you conclude that the name Yeshua or "Jesus" is the name of God and not Yahweh. PR Jesus is the man born of mary,but God is the one who became the man. Yahwey is the name of God the Father not necessarily the name of the son. Jesus is the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit. Yahwey was revealed in Yeshua. The son is the MAN, The Father became. Yeshua is that man,Yahwey is the Father. They are not separate ''beings'' but distinct through Yeshua's humanity. I would disagree that the name Yahwey is the name of the Father...... Yahwey is the name of what Jesus was before ne sat it aside and became a human. The Father is who Jesus was b4 he set aside his deity to become a man. Then he calls himself his own son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I'm seeing your viewpoint......(not necessarily agreeing)....but what I just dont understand is how you conclude that the name Yeshua or "Jesus" is the name of God and not Yahweh. PR Jesus is the man born of mary,but God is the one who became the man. Yahwey is the name of God the Father not necessarily the name of the son. Jesus is the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit. Yahwey was revealed in Yeshua. The son is the MAN, The Father became. Yeshua is that man,Yahwey is the Father. They are not separate ''beings'' but distinct through Yeshua's humanity. I would disagree that the name Yahwey is the name of the Father...... Yahwey is the name of what Jesus was before ne sat it aside and became a human. The Father is who Jesus was b4 he set aside his deity to become a man. So then the Father stopped being God when He became a man? Who was keeping the universe together, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 The Bible says that the Father is "THE GOD" it also says that Jesus existed as "god" before he sat that aside and became a man, but it never says that Jesus is/was/will be, "THE GOD" They are only one as we are one..... they are not the same thing, they just act and think in total unison as Jesus prayed that we would do with he and the Father through him. If you are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same thing, then you can say that I am/will be "The God" as I become one with Jesus as he prayed to his father. This oneness stuff makes so many parts of scripture totally silly if you say that Jesus and the Father are the same entity. I agree with your first statement that THE GOD is the Father and Jesus existed as God b4 incarnation,but I notice you used a lower case g for God and in your explaination made Jesus outr to be an lower god from the Father or another god than the Father,I dont think even your trinitarian friends would back you on this on kansas. Jesus is a man ''The Son'' while God is ''The Father'' if Jesus is or was God thn he is or was the Father because there is no God other than the Father. Don't try to apply meaning to typing errors, but most notable is that I didn't say this, you quoted from "other one" and ignored my post completely. Explain why God would exalt himself and then call himself his son. Your theory just causes confusion. And again you completely ignore scripture that says the author of life is the same person we killed. Yes obviously we killed the human part of Jesus but there is still the clear distinction that Jesus and the Author of Life are one and the same, and that the Son coexist with the Father, for the Father refers to the Son before incarnation. Again I point out that you have just ignored parts of scripture and then just restate your position. We know your position, but it does not line up with all scripture. You are pointing to an incomplete picture that ignores the whole truth. You need to look at all scripture has to say not just pick and choose a few that support your theory. God Bless, K.D. That is exactly the process used to come up with the trinity doctrine K.D. The pick and choose method. The trinity doctrine does nothing to explain the nature of the godhead and it is very much a private interpretation of the scripture. Actually this is not correct. The Trinity Doctrine takes all scripture has to say and reconciles every one. The oneness doctrine sets up contradictions, where as the Trinity doctrine fits with all of them. Secondly, the oneness doctrine is most definitely private interpretation, where as the trinity doctrine, as I have shown, has it roots in tradition taught by our church leaders back to the time when John the Apostle was still alive. This is what is known as Sacred Tradition, not personal interpretation. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 coequal... The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here Matt 12:41-42 (KJV) Jesus was greater than Jonah and Solomon. Agreed? Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28 (KJV) The Father is greater than Jesus. Agreed? Probably not, and from both camps. The trinity camp says coequal. The oneness camp says the Father and Jesus are the same one, leaving the greatness/lesserthan question unanswered. The bible is right, even if we can't easily figure it out. K.D. How can the Son and the Father be coequal if Jesus says that the Father is greater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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