Spirit Baptism Vs. Water Baptism

[Guest mcm42]

Has anyone, in these discussions suggested that baptism of the soul saves? Otherwise known as "Spirit Baptism". It's a word widely used by the chrasmatics, but it may explian some of the "Baptism" questions.

1 Peter 3:20-21

"who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21  Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Even here we see that baptism isn't the removal of dirt, it's the appeal to god for a good conscience, which is something you do inside, not something that is done by immersion, or sprinkling. Also, did the water save? no the ark did the saving. And God gave Noah the directions for the Ark. Corresponding to that Baptism saves, not the water, but the appeal to God.

The theif on the cross was never baptized! It was his appeal to God, which was evidence of a new heart (something he could not have done on his own) and hence Christ said "this day you will be with me in glory"

[Guest sanctification]

I'd like to teach you something that I learned when I was told by a church that I was not saved because I had not been baptized:

"Circumcision has value if you keep the law, but if you break the law, you become as though you had not been circumcised. If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." rom 2:25-29

"The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love the Lord with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." Deut. 30:6

(Just in case you were wondering whether circumcision and baptism are the same for the Jews and Gentiles, respectively. I can tell you more about this too.)

Circumcision on the outside has value *only if* you have first been inwardly circumcized. And we are circumcised in heart by His Spirit, not by obeying this commandment in the flesh.

There is a lot more I can share than this, to explain baptism.

P.S., I did a study of the Greek variations of the word "baptize." Of every passage except 3 in the entire NT, they all mean "a destrictive washing." This does not imply physical or spiritual. However the physical variation meaning, "to dip (in)" was only used those three times, and never in any of the hundred or so important passages regarding this issue. So when you read Paul in Acts ask "What baptism did you receive?" he means "What destructive washing did you receive" as in, there is only one sacrifice which really washes away sins--Jesus's blood.

We receive this washing of our Spirits by faith. Physical baptism is important because Jesus said "whoever will deny me on earth my Father will deny in heaven" -- our testimony matters for His glory.

[1ptr29citizen]

First off mcm, we already have a baptism forum, it's just "locked" for some reason right now. Second off, no the thief on the cross wasn't baptized (most probably wasn't baptized anyway), but yes he was saved. Difference? Simple. Salvation before Christ's death, burial, and resurrection could be accomplished by Christ simply telling you that you will be saved. It's different for us. In 1 Peter 3:21 it says that baptism saves "by the resurrection of Christ." Was Christ resurrected before the thief on the cross. Of course not, therefore baptism in Christ for salvation would serve no purpose.

As to the idea of "spirit baptism," you're trying to cut and paste pieces of 1 Peter 3:21. It says that baptism isn't something that removes dirt. Now if Peter was talking a "spirit baptism," why would he say something like that. If baptism was entirely non-physical, what would be the point in saying "not the removal of dirt from the body." Obviously, Peter was clarifying that baptism happens in water, but it isn't the same thing as taking a bath. Baptism saves you, it isn't washing away dirt, it is pledging a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Christ. That's what the verse says. Also, in verse 20, Noah was saved BECAUSE OF the ark, but saved THROUGH the water. That symbolizes, in the same way, baptism. It saves us BECAUSE OF the resurrection of Christ, but THROUGH the water. Want more proof? Take any Greek lexicon. Baptism in Greek actually means "to fully immerse," and unless the baptism specifies what someone is baptized IN, it is ALWAYS assumed that the immersion occurs in water. 1 Peter 3:21 says this baptism now saves you also. Does it specify? No, so it's in water. Does it save? We'll let the verse answer itself on that one...

[Guest shiloh357]

And so it begins....

again

[Guest mcm42]

All the Gospels teach a Spirit Baptism, good reason to think there was more to it than "dipping in water,"

Baptism by the Spirit-

Mt:3:11 "As for me I baptize with water for repentence,but He who is coming after me is mighter than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will Baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire"

Mk:1:8 "I will baptize you with water but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"

Lk:3:16 "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me I baptize you with water but One is coming who is mightier than I and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.'"

Jn:1:26 "John answered them saying 'I baptize with water but among you stands One whom you do not know. It is He who comes after me the thong of whose

sandal I am not worth to untie.'...

Jn:1:32 "and john bore witness saying, 'I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and he remained upon him (33) and I did not recognize

Him but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whome you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, he is the one who baptizes

in the Holy Spirit.

Paul was not sent to Baptize, but to Preach. (Making one believe that baptism, by water, was not essential)

1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the Gospel"

Peter Saw Baptism of the Spirit on the Gentiles

Acts 11:15 "And as I (peter) began to speak the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as he did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord

how He used to say 'John baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'"

Quote: "you're trying to cut and paste pieces of 1 Peter 3:21"

1Peter 3:17-21 "For it is better, if God should will it so that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust in order that He might bring us to God having been put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; the just for the unjust in order that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that Baptism now saves you- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

First this passage is NOT about baptism, it is about the spirit of God bringing you through. Three examples are given, Jesus himself, suffering for what is good that we may be made alive in the Spirit. The spirit who made proclamation to those who were suffering in jail, and even Noah when the "patience of God" kept waiting so that they may be brought through. (Jesus, NT, and OT examples) Now how does verse 21 connect? Corresponding to that... not the water, not Noah, not the ark, but the three examples just given of doing whats right by the spirit. Baptism now saves you... not water baptism but an appeal for good conscience or doing what is right. The baptism of the heart, or Spirit baptism. A change which can only occur through the resurrection of Jesus. This theme continues through chapter four, encouraging us to continue to suffer for what is right and to endure through the spirit.

Again it's not a passage about Baptism but about the spirit enduring with those who do good. That's the context, without leaving anything out.

Quote Baptism in Greek actually means "to fully immerse," and unless the baptism specifies what someone is baptized IN, it is ALWAYS assumed that the

immersion occurs in water. 1 Peter 3:21 says this baptism now saves you also. Does it specify? No, so it's in water.

Actually it does specify, it's specifies not a baptism of water but one of good conscience. Something we can only attain through the resurection of Christ.

This Baptism into a new life is preached all through out scripture as one only done by the Spirit. The point of 1 peter 3:15-4:19 is all about doing what's right, something none of can do (Eph 2) without being made alive in the Spirit by Christ.

On that note: Charles Hadden Spurgeon writing on the Holy Spirit Said this

"We are told that we are 'born of water and of the Spirit" (John 3:5) NOw I do not think you are foolish enough to nee me to say that no water, either of

immersion or sprinkling can in the least degree operate in the salvation of a soul. THer emay be some few poor creatures whose heads were put on their

shoulders the wrong way who still believe that a few drops of water from a priests hands can regenerate souls,...The sooner we get rid of that doctrine

the better... But when the Holy Spirit comes into the heart, He comes like water. That is to say He comes to purify the soul."

This is found on page 181 of "Spurgeon on the Holy Spirit"

(Out of love I left out the harshest of his quote, I do not think it would have benefitted someone seeking.)

I think baptism is a stumbling block that keeps good Christians apart. I also believe that grace alone, and nothing else, saves, that all good works are a result of God's work in us. So any act, repentance, baptism, the whole nine yards are all simply a result of what has already happened inside. None of these things Saves you. "Christ Alone".

God bless

[WayneB]

And so it begins....

again

Which is OK by me if everyone has settled down a bit and keeps the discussion focused on the topic without personal attacks. I do believe it is an endless debate but maybe mcm can shed new light on the issue?

citizen, the other thread will remain locked because it got personal. I pray y'all don't let this thread get out of hand. Remain civil and gentle with one another. :il:

Bless Y'all,

Wayne

[Guest fishingpenguin]

Lets talk about being saved through faith and not works.

Eph 2:8

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[Guest mcm42]

Notice that after talking about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire, he says that the winnowing fork is in his hand to gather the wheat, and burn up the chaff with fire. Baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire here is best translated as "plunged" means that by Jesus's coming, all will be forced to choose to accept him or reject him.

All well and good except for this: Acts 11:15 "And as I (peter) began to speak the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as he did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord how He used to say 'John baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'" As you can see that any "out of context" you may have been refering to is covered here. Peter refers back to it in the same way that I refered to it, and it has nothing to do with taking the plunge. Rather it has to do with the action of the Spirit on the life of a new believer, prior to water.

As far as the

the winnowing fork is in his hand to gather the wheat, and burn up the chaff with fire.

Lastly I've posted this elsewhere and I don't want this topic to overrun the Baptism debate but here is what I believe...

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[waitingforhim]

The Holy Spirit baptises us into the body the moment we are saved

Jesus baptises those of us in the Holy Spirit who desire it.

The Pastor (or another Christian) baptises us in water-to help us make our inward decision (to follow Christ) a public confession.

[Guest mcm42]

Jesus baptises those of us in the Holy Spirit who desire it.

Please eplain what you mean by this... A second baptism for elite believers?