Spirit Baptism Vs. Water Baptism

[Guest london]

Baptism... Not water... But an appeal to God for a good conscience.

london: I believe you have changed the words. It says "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pladge of a good conscience toward God." or in your own format "Baptism... not washing dirt... but pledging a good conscience toward God" It does not say "not water" and may i remind that we should not add, take away or alter the Bible.

It think it is distinguishing physical from spritual. Think about it... why would he need to reference to physical cleansing done by water if there was nothing to confuse with it spiritually. Confusing? (I had to read it a couple time to make sure it made sense) Let me refrase - Does baptism of the Spirit wash dirt off the body? I believe Peter is saying basically "The water that you are being baptised in isn't washing the dirt off your body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." If it was talking about Spirit baptism why would he refer to a physical washing of dirt? It would be irrelevant. There would be nothing to confuse of whether the Spirit was getting rid of physical dirt or sins because the Spirit doesn't get rid of physical dirt. I hope that I'm not being too redundant and that you understand what i'm trying to say. I know my wording is very confusing, i apologize.

1ptr29citizen: one can see that you are saved by the resurrection of Christ THROUGH baptism.

mcm42:Funny I thought it was by grace through faith that we are saved.

As far as being saved through faith and through baptism. Make reference to my previous post. Faith and actions work harmoniously. Those two (faith and baptism) work together for salvation. And if you really want to get technicalb aren't we also saved through hearing, and through believing, and through the resurrection of Christ. And don't forget Jesus says "No one comes to the Father except through me." Are you possibly saying that you must choose only one to get to heaven? (and I'm pretty sure you aren't saying that) But the Bible says they are necessary for salvation and it also says that there is only one way to heaven? (I regret not having an available passage at the moment but I trust that you know that already) We know that the Bible doesn't not contradict itself so how does that makes sense. It tells me that all of these are harmoniously essential for salvation.

And may I remind everyone took TRY TRY TRY to not be sarcastic. I apologize if i have been, but being sarcastic doesn't help at all, it just makes everyone really tense. This forum is for sharing our knowledge of God's word and for uplifting and helping one another and being sarcastic doesn't do that. God is our main focus, not arguing. Again, I hope i brought some enlightenment and have done justice to God's Word.

[Guest london]

OOOPS! Sorry everyone about the two posts. I messed up on the format of one post and so i tried over. There maybe some altered stuff in the second one. I can't remember. - so if you care to, you may want to look for some extra point in the second post... I'm not new to the site but I am new at posting stuff so you'll have to be patient with me. Sorry

[serotta]

london, James is one of my favorite books of the Bible. But I think you are somewhat mistaken in your interpretation. James specifically states that one is saved by Grace through faith. Nothing else is required to be saved, nothing. Everything else that James speaks of comes AFTER salvation. Faith without works is dead, yes, but faith preceeds works. Everything that comes after is done through faith and is a sign of oyur faith. This includes baptism, it is a sign of your faith and salvation.

[Guest london]

haha that's funny, it's one of my favorite books too!

James specifically states that one is saved by Grace through faith. Nothing else is required to be saved, nothing. Everything else that James speaks of comes AFTER salvation. Faith without works is dead, yes, but faith preceeds works.

I'm not saying that youare incorrect in saying that your are saved by grace through faith by any means but could you please give scriptural support (either type it out of give a reference). Especially where you said

Everything else that James speaks of comes AFTER salvation.

But i do not totally agree when you say that faith preceeds works. Yes, you must have faith in the Lord order to do works for the Lord but in verse 22 that his faith was made complete by what he did. I do also agree that only grace is required for salvation. If you don't mind i may use your own words that you have restated from scripture - "grace through faith" This tells me that faith is also needed, is it not? And for another example, Romans 10:9-10 says "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, " and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that your confess and are saved." So this passage says that confession with your mouth and belief are what saves you. Well if we are saved by grace alone (which I have never seen a scriptural example that it is grace ALONE) then that would nullify this passage because that would mean that we would have to confess and believe as well (which isn't grace alone). Now lets look at Revelation 22:18-19 which i'm sure you're familiar with. It says "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." If that verse isn't sufficient - Galatians 1:7-8 It says " Evidently some people are throwing you in to confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned." It's clear that we should leave God's word exactly the way it is. Right? So shouldn't we take everything in from God's word. Everything in God's word is useful (I have a verse for that. I've been looking for it for about 10 min. now and can't fiind it at the moment) and so I must conclude that if that Bible tells us that confession, believing, GRACE, AND other things are necessary for salvation, even if they are in different sections, then they all must be necessary for salvation. That is why I think that grace ALONE is an incomplete thought, because it doesn't use the complete Bible. Well i'm out of time for the moment. Please respond. Thank you for your gentleness serotta, i appreciate it.

[Guest mcm42]

Okay, Let me see if I can clarify my stand, without being misunderstood and without yelling with caps and without using any sarcasm.

First of all, James is talking about faith that works not faith and works. "Show me your faith without works and I will show my faith by my works." He speaks of a faith that was "active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works." No one would argue that the very first instance is faith... then that faith works itself out. Any supposed faith that never yeilds any works is indeed dead. I would agree that Baptism is a viable work that someone with faith can and I would even say should do.

"grace through faith" This tells me that faith is also needed, is it not

As far as adding to the Gospel, anything beyond a Faith that is granted by Grace, is a works salvation. We are told in eph 2 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. and this is not of your own doing; it is the gift of God." [this is the ESV other versions would render it this way "for by grace you are saved through faith, that not of yourselves it is a gift from God" (NASB, or NIV)

Understand that the gift is not grace, the gift is the faith. Everything after faith is a product of the faith that is given, hence it is by grace alone. The Grace is the giving of faith. It is by God's Grace through the Faith that he gives. All grace has to have two things... something to be gracious with and something to be gracious too. Ephesians 2 shows us that God Uses Grace, well grace is nothing without an object. We are the objects. And Grace has to do something for the object. This is FAITH.

You say, the grace was displayed through christ's gift. God's gift has always been FAITH. (Hence all the talk about Abraham's Faith and how we are Abrahams descendants by FAITH not by Flesh) Abraham was chosen, and given the gift of FAITH. That displayed itself in his actions, that's how we know it was really faith.

Naturally Christ becomes the object of faith.

I'll stop and switch subjects

[Guest mcm42]

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, " and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that your confess and are saved." So this passage says that confession with your mouth and belief are what saves you. Well if we are saved by grace alone (which I have never seen a scriptural example that it is grace ALONE) then that would nullify this passage because that would mean that we would have to confess and believe as well (which isn't grace alone)

Your right, in the sense that it's not Grace alone. It is Faith Alone. Faith Alone, Saves, but as we know from the James passage Faith always displays itself through works. Paul taught faith alone, in Romans 4 "16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteeed to all his offspring...22"That is why faith was counted to him as righteousness."

Now James speaks of the same occurance but shows how if Abraham had not displayed his faith it would not have been faith. Why? True faith changes the heart, the entire life.

Another verse that teaches Faith Alone is Romans 5 "Therefore sinc we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Now in reference to Romans 10... "But what does it say, the word is in your mouth and in your heart that is the word of faith that we proclaim. Because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Now Check out Romans 10:14

"But how are they to call on him in whom they haved not believed? and how are they do believe in him of whom they have never heard?" As you can see by the bold you can't call on Christ or Proclaim him without first having believed.

Also, need I bring up that no where in these passages is Baptism shown as a part of this saving process in Romans 10! Peculiar Paul didn't see fit to say that we need to believe in our hearts and be baptized! He just said we need to believe in the heart and confess with the mouth.

I will not go on but I would suggest reading Romans 9, 10, and 11 and seeing how God has mercy, or chooses some out of the disobediant, this jumps off the page when you read romans 11 about those who are a "remnant of Israel," who are elect.

However, this goes beyond what this Board is here for, so I won't go into it.

[His son]

What one should do is to get serious in studying these doctrines out, by using The Bible from Cover to cover. If you will do this you will find there are many things by which you are saved, as stated in The Bible. God's word is made not to be easy for you to go get an answer, but that 's what you want is easy. Take your time, and don't rely on your own understanding, trust God.

What did Jesus say about baptism in water. That's the Truth of why you shoud be baptized. He told John to baptize Him as an act of obedience to The Scripures. Is that so difficult to understand. God being totaly Just would not require obedience from anyone for anything if they didn't have the opportunity to obey. That's not to complicated. Jesus told the disciples to preach the Gospel, and to baptize those who believe thats pretty plain, and simple. He didn't tell them to judge whether or not they believed and force them to be baptized, so I would suggest it would be the same process by which He got baptized. He went to John and asked John to baptize Him as an act of obedience. Man is the one who complicates this issue, and look where it has taken you guys trying to figure it out.

[Guest mcm42]

What one should do is to get serious in studying these doctrines out, by using The Bible from Cover to cover.

Don't presuppose that this had not already been done!

If you will do this you will find there are many things by which you are saved, as stated in The Bible.

This is an opinion I don't share. It is by faith, and faith alone. From Genesis to revelation it is faith, from Abraham to the Apostles, Faith... It was credited to Abraham as Righteousness and it is in the same way credited to us as righteousness.

What did Jesus say about baptism in water. That's the Truth of why you shoud be baptized. He told John to baptize Him as an act of obedience to The Scripures. Is that so difficult to understand.

I would never argue that one should never be baptized. I think that Baptism is indeed an act of obedience as well, yet not for salvation. It is a wonderful act that accompanies salvation, but I must stand by the apostles and the reformers after them when they say Faith alone. On the basis of salvation, we need faith, a gift given by God.

That's not to complicated. Jesus told the disciples to preach the Gospel, and to baptize those who believe thats pretty plain, and simple. He didn't tell them to judge whether or not they believed and force them to be baptized, so I would suggest it would be the same process by which He got baptized. He went to John and asked John to baptize Him as an act of obedience. Man is the one who complicates this issue, and look where it has taken you guys trying to figure it out

First, John turned people away who came to be baptized, so John did some kind of judging in whom he would and would not baptize.

Second, How would they be able to baptize those who believed if they didn't first "judge" in some way who believed and who didn't? I may be wrong here, but I don't think anyone was every "forced to be baptized."

Third, discussing issues has, I would hope, taken everyone back to their Bibles to review what they believe to see if it is accurate. And if this discussion has done only that, then I am satisfied to say that it has been profitable. If It has caused people to run to their Bibles, and engulf themselves in scripture, this has been a profit.

Thanks for your post, hope this helps

[stevehut]

The theif on the cross was never baptized! It was his appeal to God, which was evidence of a new heart (something he could not have done on his own) and hence Christ said "this day you will be with me in glory"

How do you know this? The story doesn't even tell his name, let alone anything else about him.

A further study of the Gospels will show us that there is actually nothing unique about this man

[stevehut]

All the Gospels teach a Spirit Baptism, good reason to think there was more to it than "dipping in water,"

Are you sure about that?

Christian baptism could not have been had until after the Resurection (Rom. 6)

Spirit baptism was not done until Pentecost. The evidence of this, is that it was a new experience for everyone involved.