Spirit Baptism Vs. Water Baptism

[Guest mcm42]

Are you sure about that?

Christian baptism could not have been had until after the Resurection (Rom. 6)

Spirit baptism was not done until Pentecost. The evidence of this, is that it was a new experience for everyone involved.

Correct except when John the Baptist predicted (in all four gospels) that Christ would Baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire!

That's all i was refering too... not the actual Act but the teaching, or the idea of Spirit Baptism.

And you are correct about what you say about the thief, it was my first thought... But if salvation came to all those men, we know that it is not the Act of Water Baptism that saves a person...That was my only point.

Good post... thanks

[stevehut]

Funny I thought it was by grace through faith that we are saved.

Is that necessarily a contradiction? Does faith exist in a vacuum? Hebrews 11 says that Abraham was not considered righteous until he demonstrated his faith.

[stevehut]

Correct except when John the Baptist predicted (in all four gospels) that Christ would Baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire!...

[Guest sanctification]

<< Hebrews 11 says that Abraham was not considered righteous until he demonstrated his faith. >>

No it does not. Let's look at Rom 4, and James 2.

"Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." rom 4:10-11

This "seal" that is mentioned in Rom 4:11 is an oath by God. It means a pledge or guarantee of full payment. Gen. 38:15 "'Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?' she asked. He said, 'What pledge should I give you?' 'Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand,' she answered." "Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 cor 5:5 "He annointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 cor 1:22

Let's read again what rom 4:11 says about what God did to Abraham: "Was it after circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, the seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." So even though Abraham did not obey the command for circumcision until later, Abraham was considered obedient to that law not because of anything Abraham had done besides have faith, but because God set his promise of a guarantee on him, and the promise was for fulfillment of the whole righteousness that works brings to complete the faith. God's seal is an oath by God that works will be carried out by men who have only a righteous faith. Faith is the fulfillment of all laws and their required works, hence the "guarantee". We receive a sign of works in the flesh those of us with faith, and the sign is the Holy Spirit, dwelling within them, prodding them toward God.

Now if God promises something, what are the chances that it will not happen? By faith I say that those chances are zero. For me, knowing that it is impossible to serve God without His Spirit, is a relief, because it is not about my performance any longer. I live by God's power. "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last" rom 1:17. All of my needs in this life and in heaven are met, actually my cup runneth over, by His grace [undeserved favor]. I receive my answers and my help by faith, by a faith that is alone. My demonstration in works has nothing to do with it. Works are a reflection of how God has shown me His kindness "it is His kindness that leads you to repentance" rom 2:4

"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. If those who are not circumcised keep the laws requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." Now God has something new to say next in this matter: "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly; nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." rom 2:25-29

Regarding this secret, unseen circumcision within the confines of the heart: "The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and soul, and live." deut 30:6

Notice says in 2:26 that those who have the right heart alone, will be considered as though they had carried out that work in the flesh. Wow! Our heart's attitude accomplishes all the law's requirements without the need for physical demonstration. In 29 it says that a man is a child of God if he is one inwardly, period. God acknowledges that there are two realms to obedience; the heart (hidden, inner-man), and the flesh (plain, outward-man). Which one has the authority to make us right? The inner. Not a combination--the inner alone. What then is the role for fleshly works? "circumcision has value," (vs 25) it says; James 2.

The main topic James discusses in chapter 2 is "do you want evidence that faith without works is useless?" 2:20. So we are discussing the futility of a faith that proves to be deedless, not that all kinds of faith is useless to save us. James says about Abraham that he received righteousness because he offered up Issac, and that this work made his faith complete, because faith and deeds work together. It says "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that Abraham was justified by what he does and not by faith alone." Translation = righteousness comes from your work, too. The righteousness that has to do with reward, not with entrance into the body of Christ.

Works were designed to gain treasure in heaven; they flow naturally from a person who has a faith that is saving. But they cannot secure any foundation for righteousness at judgment. Let's examine:

Genesis 15:4-6 "Then the word of the Lord came to him: 'This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.' He took him outside and said, 'Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them.' Then he said to him, 'So shall your offspring be.' Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to Him as righteousness."

rom 4:23-24 "The words 'it was credited to him' were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him, who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, 'Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" 1 cor 1:30-31

Abram was credited righteousness, and called God's friend, 20-30-some years before He asked Abraham to offer up Issac on the altar--well before His righteous works. In fact, the simple fact that he heard and believed God's promise, is immediately followed by God's response: "and it was credited to him as righteousness."

"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, 'So shall your offspring be.' Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what He had promised. This is why 'it was credited to him as righteousness.'" rom 4:18-22

Now you will see an example of someone who happens to be the father of our faith, who was righteous in God's sight through faith alone, because belief is sealed by God with a promise, that we will indeed have good works.

We know from the example of God supposedly turning a stone into a son of Abraham, that not everyone is a descendant of Abraham--only those who have the faith of Abraham, those are the true offspring. The physical doesn't matter to God. Then it says in rom 4:16 "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all." It describes Abraham's offspring being of both types, both being acceptable: those who happen to be circumcised outwardly but also having his kind of faith inwardly, and those who only have his faith with no physical demonstration.

Proof: 4:11-12 "So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."

Rom 2:26 "If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?" And who are they who are considered those who "keep the laws requirements?" It is those who are "righteous," the very righteousness credited to Abraham at the point of his belief. "a righteousness that comes by faith from first to last." (rom 1:17) There will never be any room for works-righteousness in the heart of God.

[Guest sanctification]

London,

<< Those two (faith and baptism) work together for salvation. And if you really want to get technicalb aren't we also saved through hearing, and through believing, and through the resurrection of Christ. >>

I understand how James seems to be saying this. But entrance into heaven is based on one realm alone: the hidden, inner realm of man, not the outer, plain, physical realm.

It is not so zany to think that God requires an act of obedience to get into heaven. That being faith, hearing and understanding, repentance--all things done in the heart of a man alone.

If you read the gamut on man's nature apart from God, you will see that man can give birth to righteous desires and evil desires within the heart. Evil desires can be carried out in the flesh on our own. But it is absolutely impossible for a man to carry out an act of righteousness in the flesh, apart from the Spirit of God. Why? Because sin takes the opportunity afforded by the commandment and produces evil desires in us. There is nothing good that lives within us. No one does good, not even one, not even once. Here is my main beef with water baptism gaining salvation:

1) It takes the Spirit of God in order to do anything righteous in His sight.

2) The Spirit of God is not given until after baptism.

3) God's Holy Spirit cannot dwell where sin is.

4) Therefore we must have already received the Holy Spirit for us to be able to willingly enter into an act of water baptism, seeking the Lord.

[Guest livingforchrist]

I'm confused. What does the Holy Spirit Baptism involve?

-vik

[Guest sanctification]

livingforchrist,

Here is what God said He would do in baptism:

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep all my laws." ezek 36:25-27

I don't see any hint of God suggesting he needs a man to make me born again. (I am referring to a physical, water baptism ceremony.) That he needs even ME to do it.

Does this answer your question?

[Guest mcm42]

Well put Sanctification... very well put

[stevehut]

<< Hebrews 11 says that Abraham was not considered righteous until he demonstrated his faith. >>

No it does not. Let's look at Rom 4, and James 2.

Huh?

Does Heb. 11 cease to exist because of thise verses??

[Guest mcm42]

<< Hebrews 11 says that Abraham was not considered righteous until he demonstrated his faith. >>

No it does not. Let's look at Rom 4, and James 2.

Hebrews 11 does NOT talk about when Abraham was considered righteous! It only tells what he did "by faith". Maybe I'm reading over something.

Romans 4 teaches us that

"9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith

20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

James 2 is also a reference, that shows that faith is righteousness, but works are the product of the faith.