Babies...Heaven Or Hell

[Work in Progress]

Hey, before I was saved, I was "naive of sin". I sinned up a storm and, the entire time, I said that I believed in God and that He was loving and I was secure in that. And I sinned up a storm some more. I was completely lost, unsaved, but hey - according to this belief, I would have gone to Heaven anyway, because I was totally naive in my sin, and didn't even have a clue that I was lost.

Not. LOL

[Guest mscoville]

"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Matt 19:14. I know that has been mentioned but I think that scripture, in conjunction with 2 Samuel 12:23 can paint us a pretty good picture. After Bathsheba has given birth and her child dies, David's response is intriguing. "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." Intimating that he will be with the child in paradise some day. There is the possible objection that Romans 3:23 raises, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" but I think Paul may clear that up for us in discussing Jacob and Esau in Romans 9:11 "Yet before the twins were born OR had done anything good or bad - ......" This implies that there is a certain time at which we may still be considered innocent. Since it's not directly addressed it can be argued but I think this is a safe understanding of scripture.

I love you all brothers and sisters,

Martin

[Guest mscoville]

-HOW ABOUT THAT??--8 LIll-OLE POSTS & ALREADY A SELF-APPOINTED MOD-

-THAT-SETS-UP REQUIREMENTS TO ANSWER ONE OF THEIR NICE-LIll-OLE 8

-POSTS--

He could be a pastor for all you know, be nice bro.

Hey that rhymed!

~ Martin

[Guest mscoville]

I believe Scripture doesn't address it and that wasn't in the poll.

I believe that these topics are tools to take us away from the important work of sharing the saving Grace of God to those who are lost.

I believe that Scripture says that there is not one who is without sin. Not one.

I believe that Scripture says that every single human being is born deserving of hell and eternity apart from God and , by His grace, some are saved from that.

I believe that some humans can not deal with what they see as "injustice" and "unfairness" in that and make up doctrines to make them feel better so that they don't have to deal with "uncomfortable" things. .

I believe that many of these posts are bait for an argument which is pointless.

That is what I believe.

Ouch. Very tough response.

God Bless,

Martin

[Guest mcm42]

Yet before the twins were born OR had done anything good or bad - ......" This implies that there is a certain time at which we may still be considered innocent. Since it's not directly addressed it can be argued but I think this is a safe understanding of scripture

First of all I love this chapter, and I think I've learned more about it since I've been on Worthy, than I ever could have otherwise.

Anywho... You bring up an interesting point, to me anyway. First I do NOT agree that this is a safe assumption.

As you probably know it shows that it is not works but it's God's choosing. (I will not digress any further here because this has been run over plenty in other posts, The horse is dead I will beat it no longer )

Second, I think the only thing this shows is that God chooses prior to any works... (My undestaning only, please put your guns away). It shows that ultimatly God does the choosing (again my understanding I know it's not widely agreed upon) of men prior to their works.

Also Paul alread had addressed the "non-innocence" of mankind in Chapters 1,3, and 5. For no reason would he imply that these Children were in anyway innocent... only that they hadn't done any works yet.

Meaning His Election isn't based on our works but on His Right as Creator to Choose. (Dare I say before we chose Him He Chose us.)

Ahhhhhh DUCK... here come the posts about how evil the Doctrine of Election is and How UnJust, UnBiblical and Unreasonable it is. Please, I swear I didn't mean it... :sweating: O.K. just trying to lighten the mood, Give a guy a break

That's my view... I know plenty don't agree, that's fine by me, just addressing my side.

Thanks For your post, it's very interesting to see where your coming from

[Guest mscoville]

First of all I love this chapter, and I think I've learned more about it since I've been on Worthy, than I ever could have otherwise.

Anywho... You bring up an interesting point, to me anyway. First I do NOT agree that this is a safe assumption.

As you probably know it shows that it is not works but it's God's choosing. (I will not digress any further here because this has been run over plenty in other posts, The horse is dead I will beat it no longer

[Guest mcm42]

Yeah, not a problem

I'll just give you cross references for now...

Both Romans 3 and Romans 5 give very clear explanation of Total Depravity.

Romans 5: 17,18 is most revealing to me

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

That's what convinces me the most. There is more, some OT passages that show how the "heart of man is desperatly wicked" but none shows it more bluntly than Romans 3 and 5. Read the whole chapters, both, and it should become clear that man is sinful, right from square one. Also Ephesians 2 describes man like this "For you were once dead in trespasses and Sin" Dead! I see this as meaning we were incapable of life on our own. What I mean is a dead man can't raise himself to new life. Some people don't agree that "dead" in this verse really means dead, as in incapable of choosing Christ.

I'm not sure I'm 100% Calvinist, it seems like man is accountable for his actions, or else we wouldn't have to go to hell if we goof up

Calvin's belief was that man was sinful first, and therefore deserving hell. As far as Judgement, that is based on works, or what we do. So Man is indeed accountable for his actions in that he will be juged.

Faith determines destiny (heaven/hell)

Works Determines Judgement (degree of Punishment)

Since faith is a gift from God (eph 2:8,9), God has to give us faith in order for us to have it! That is why I believe we are all heirs to Abraham not of the flesh but heirs of Faith. (ref Gal. 3)

That's how I see the issue,

thanks for your post, let me know where you stand so I can see more where your coming from.

God Bless

[Guest mscoville]

MCM,

Have to do some thinking and reading and PRAYING first, ha. Have a great weekend.

~ Martin

[Guest mscoville]

I'd like to hear what you think about the 2Samuel verse (12:23) and Matthew 19:14. If those verses mean what they seem to me to mean, then the total depravity may be at least in question right? Anyway.

Ciao

[Guest mcm42]

May God Bless your outcome, as well as your persistance and desire to know Him more!