ParanoidAndroid Posted November 16, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 591 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/27/1979 Share Posted November 16, 2007 (edited) PA, the way I read the phrase 'Christian high-school coach,' and the way I understood QM to mean it, was that the word Christian refers to the coach, not to the high-school. In other words, I took it that the coach was a Christian working in a high-school. (QM, please correct me if I am wrong.)Ahh, that makes sense. That's what you get for responding to posts and 1am when you've just gotten home from work after a long day including morning university classes. In this case, I fully support and agree with the action undertaken by the ACLU in this situation. The teacher should not have prayed. Though for curiosity, I wonder what people here would have said if at one of those times of the day when Muslims needed to bow down and pray towards Mecca, a Teacher of Muslim belief bowed down with a group of kids and started praying with them. Would Qun Mang still say that prayer "sadly doesn't include teachers"?????? Just a few thoughts. ~ Paranoid Android P.S - forrestkc - couldn't have said it better myself Edited November 16, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathqueen Posted November 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1975 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Except for the jail example, the cases you provided are about the students, not the teachers. In the issue I mentioned, the students had the freedom to pray. The ACLU representive was essentially saying the coach had no rights to any religious expression. Because the coach is operating in the capacity of a public employee, and thus by leading prayer in that capacity, he is using the government to promote or endorse his religious beliefs, thus, his actions are unconstitutional. However, if on his own time he wanted to lead prayers, he is certainly free to do so. This is a simple principle. For example, if you are a judge, you can pray about cases, you can pray privately in your chambers, you can teach sunday school at your church, but you can't lead a prayer in the court room. Didn't the original post say the STUDENTS were leading the prayer and the coach just happened to pray silently along with them? Btw, forrest, if he had led the prayer, I do agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted November 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2007 Have parents and other board members spend one day in charge of a classroom by themselves. Make the assignments incredibly simple and see if they can actually get all the students to complete the assignment. Make them pay for half the materials themselves. Put limits on the rest of the materials regardless if it meets the needs of the state required curriculum. Then pour a mountain of lesson planning, administrative duties, and dealing with parents on top of that. Then send a monstrous stack of papers home for them to grade. Then ride them the next day if they didn't get it all done. Then give them a puny paycheck in return for their service. Then find some of your co-teachers and talk about the other teachers behind their back. Then give them the option of going back tomorrow or taking a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily~Anne Posted November 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 146 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,308 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 Have parents and other board members spend one day in charge of a classroom by themselves. Make the assignments incredibly simple and see if they can actually get all the students to complete the assignment. Make them pay for half the materials themselves. Put limits on the rest of the materials regardless if it meets the needs of the state required curriculum. Then pour a mountain of lesson planning, administrative duties, and dealing with parents on top of that. Then send a monstrous stack of papers home for them to grade. Then ride them the next day if they didn't get it all done. Then give them a puny paycheck in return for their service. Then find some of your co-teachers and talk about the other teachers behind their back. Then give them the option of going back tomorrow or taking a beating. OK, so I take it you have the utmost respect for what your wife has to endure as a teacher. You make good points here. Boy, that would be very hard to manage a classrom of 30 or so kids that are not your own. Teachers do very well considering the circumstances. Really, for everything that is wrong in schools today, I think teachers are the last one we should blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qun Mang Posted November 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 116 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 678 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/26/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2007 PA, the way I read the phrase 'Christian high-school coach,' and the way I understood QM to mean it, was that the word Christian refers to the coach, not to the high-school. In other words, I took it that the coach was a Christian working in a high-school. (QM, please correct me if I am wrong.) That is correct- it was a public school. The coach was Christian (as apparently were the students who prayed). Except for the jail example, the cases you provided are about the students, not the teachers. In the issue I mentioned, the students had the freedom to pray. The ACLU representive was essentially saying the coach had no rights to any religious expression. Because the coach is operating in the capacity of a public employee, and thus by leading prayer in that capacity, he is using the government to promote or endorse his religious beliefs, thus, his actions are unconstitutional. However, if on his own time he wanted to lead prayers, he is certainly free to do so. This is a simple principle. For example, if you are a judge, you can pray about cases, you can pray privately in your chambers, you can teach sunday school at your church, but you can't lead a prayer in the court room. Didn't the original post say the STUDENTS were leading the prayer and the coach just happened to pray silently along with them? Btw, forrest, if he had led the prayer, I do agree with you. It was student-led. The coach merely prayed silently off to the side. But whether or not is was appropriate for him to be praying with them (I know many schools forbid teachers from joining the students at see-you-at-the-pole prayer sessions for example, which I also think is wrong, provided the teacher is not leading a prayer), what the ACLU rep said really got my blood boiling. The rep essentially said that not only can the coach not teach Christianity, but that he can't even visibly be a Christian when acting in official capacity. What's next? When in public, but not working, teachers can't show their religion because one of their students might see and be offended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted November 19, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted November 19, 2007 So, backontrack has me pondering about the public schools alot lately. ( Hi Backontrack! ) Let's say you were on the board of education. What kind of changes would you want to work on in our public schools? That would depend on which district I was in, and the problems they face there Public education is NOT FREE! It is paid for by the public. I believe the Department of Education should be abolished entirely. The state should be separate from religlion and endorse none entirely. It should also not be involved in many things; such as how and what we learn. It is not the gov'ts place to put requirements on any of us. It has gained to much control over us and our children. Education should be privatized and in the free market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted November 19, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted November 19, 2007 (edited) So, backontrack has me pondering about the public schools alot lately. ( Hi Backontrack! ) Let's say you were on the board of education. What kind of changes would you want to work on in our public schools? That would depend on which district I was in, and the problems they face there Edited November 19, 2007 by faith pleases God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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