The Great Whore of the Revelation (chp 18)

[MrsSealedEternal]

If it was written for us, then it was written to us and we were meant to recieve it, ALSO.

MrsSealed,

What you need to understand is that there are those who see the book of Revelation as totally in the past. Preterists, for example believe that everything written in Revelation has already happened by 70 A.D. Therefore, they do not see any future fulfillment or direct relevance to us other than something we can learn from. That is where a significant portion of disagreement over the book of Revelation comes from.

Some would agree that it describes ancient Rome, but also has a future fulfillment in a heretofore unidentified entity that will bear some of the same characteristics as ancient Rome.

Yes there are those who believe that the whole of the book of Revelation has already happened but that doesn't make them right according to the written word. There is scripture that a preterist has to twist out of shape or egnore to make their beliefs right.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.

Mat 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

Mat 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

Mat 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

Mat 24:8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Mat 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Mat 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mat 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

Mat 24:18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

Mat 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Mat 24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mat 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

Mat 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.

Mat 24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.

Mat 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mat 24:28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mat 24:32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;

Mat 24:33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Mat 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Mat 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Mat 24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Mat 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mat 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

Mat 24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

Mat 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Mat 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

Mat 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Mat 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?

Mat 24:46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

Mat 24:47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Mat 24:48 ''But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'

Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;

Mat 24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Num 6:24 The LORD bless you, and keep you;

Num 6:25 The LORD make His face shine on you, And be gracious to you;

Num 6:26 The LORD lift up His countenance on you, And give you peace.'

Shalom

[Guest shiloh357]

How do you support that argument?

Because according Revelation chapter 18, the whore is destroyed in one hour and the all the merchants of the earth mourn over her destruction. Ancient Rome delined over a period of centuries and there is no record of any global lament over Rome's disappearance.

While ancient Rome would have definitely been the picture painted into the minds of John's initial audience, the destruction of the whore does not fit with the historical record of Rome's demise.

[Guest shiloh357]

Or does it? Apocalyptic literature does not necessarily give, nor is it intended to give, a detailed, blow-by-blow account of the future. The point of the passage is that the instrument of Satan's vengeance (chapter 12) will be destroyed.

It says specifically that the whore is destroyed in one hour. It does not have to give a detailed play-by-play account. Irregardless of where you place the destruction of the whore, it still says she was destroyed in one hour. The account does not go into detail, but gives us enough information that we can see that the destruction of the whore, however, it comes about it swift and complete. Again, that does not fit how history records the decline and fall of the Roman empire. You also do not have any global mourning recorded to have occurred as a result of Rome's fall. Those elements cannot be brushed aside.

[nebula]

How do you support that argument?

Because according Revelation chapter 18, the whore is destroyed in one hour and the all the merchants of the earth mourn over her destruction. Ancient Rome delined over a period of centuries and there is no record of any global lament over Rome's disappearance.

While ancient Rome would have definitely been the picture painted into the minds of John's initial audience, the destruction of the whore does not fit with the historical record of Rome's demise.

Or does it? Apocalyptic literature does not necessarily give, nor is it intended to give, a detailed, blow-by-blow account of the future. The point of the passage is that the instrument of Satan's vengeance (chapter 12) will be destroyed.

Babylon is destroyed because "16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

The Roman Empire fell apart slowly and due to so many factors, historians cannot agree on what the actual cause was. Was it general decay? Was it financial problems? Was it the Dole and Barbarians? Was it economical and military (Romes wealth came through conquering new lands and taking their wealth - but they reached a point where it was too infeasible to expand and maintain their bounderies)? Was it the rise of Christianity? Was it vandals? Was it the division of the Empire? Was it lead poisoning? Was it hoarding and deficit? (See here)

None of these explanations come close to the description in Rev. 17.

[MrsSealedEternal]

I am already aware that it was SENT forth to the seven lampstands...

Rev 1:11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

No disagreement there.

BUT Who inspired John to write revelations AND preserved His Word for ALL who read it and what else did He say?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

No disagreement here, either.

If it was written for us, then it was written to us and we were meant to recieve it, ALSO.

Rev 22:10 And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Here is where we disagree - with the assumption that John was initially writing directly to you and I in the present day. He was not. He was writing initially to the seven churches of Asia Minor. The church was on a collision course with the state. The Roman empire had begun to persecute Christians, first under Nero and then, at the time John wrote the Revelation, under Domitian. Any valid interpretation must take the historical record into account. John's message was essentially this - "Things are going to get much worse before they get better, but they will get better. Hang in there. Sit tight. Hold fast."

Was John writing directly to you and I? No. Can we learn from it anyway? Absolutely. That's why it is there.

Dear Rufus of Cyrene,

What have you learned from it? From your perspective, what else do you get from reading the revelation of the Word of God? Did it bring you face to face with the Lord?

Thanks

[Guest shiloh357]

Revelation 18:9-10, "And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning; they will stand afar off and say, 'Alas, alas, the great city Babylon, the mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come." The kings are speaking poetically. One does not interpret a poetic passage literally; otherwise it begs the question of just exactly how do political entities (read governments) commit fornication and live together. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Read on down the chapter a littel further:

And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. (Revelation 18:18-20)

You still have provided no historical evidence that the world mourned the destruction of the Roman empire, nor have you reconciled the gradual fall of Rome with the sudden and 1 hour destruction demonstrated twice in the same chapter. The "fornication" mentioned simply refers to the obvious symbiotic relationship wherein there is a mutual benefit for both. It is referring to those governments that aligned themselves with the whore and are thus characterized as having committed "fornication" with her. It really isn't that hard.

Back up to 17:7. The whore controls the beast at first but then is destroyed by it. Sounds like the final sack of Rome by Alaric the Visigoth (AD 410). By AD 200, Rome had split into two competing empires, one based in Rome proper, the other in Constantinople. The empire based in Rome consistently employed barbarian tribal mercenaries, who, when they weren't fighting for Rome, were raiding Roman territory. Given the tension between Rome and the barbarian tribes and given the fact that the Roman emperors of John's time demanded to be worshipped as gods on pain of death, then the case for the whore as a metaphor for pagan Rome only becomes stronger.

No, the description given in Revelation bears no resemblance to the sack of Rome by the Visigoths. Rome had already been in a severely weakened condition and had already been in decline by that point, and was certainly NOT making anyone else rich. In fact, Rome's relationship with other nations was not one of an alliance based on mutual benefit, rather it was one of submission to Rome by force upon pain of death and destruction. Rome maintained peace by force. The whore, on the other hand, will have a completely different relationship with the nations of the world.

[nebula]

Babylon is destroyed because "16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

Back up to 17:7. The whore controls the beast at first but then is destroyed by it. Sounds like the final sack of Rome by Alaric the Visigoth (AD 410).

Alaric is the beast and ten horns?

By AD 200, Rome had split into two competing empires, one based in Rome proper, the other in Constantinople. The empire based in Rome consistently employed barbarian tribal mercenaries, who, when they weren't fighting for Rome, were raiding Roman territory. Given the tension between Rome and the barbarian tribes and given the fact that the Roman emperors of John's time demanded to be worshipped as gods on pain of death, then the case for the whore as a metaphor for pagan Rome only becomes stronger.

No it doesn't. Egyptian kings were worshiped as gods, too.

Tell me - do you believe we are living in the fulfillment of Rev. 20-22?

[Guest shiloh357]

and you still have not provided any justification for interpreting a poetic statement literally(Revelation 18:10).

My justification is that you interpret the passage to be speaking of the literal city of ancient Rome. I am saying that the passages makes statements that cannot be historically verified, therefore, it is not only ancient Rome that is being spoken of.

Secondly, what are the internal textual indicators that reveal the passage should only be understood as "poetic?"

[Fraught]

On the other hand, John's readers understood immediately that the whore was a metaphor for the Roman empire of their own day.

Revelation is a book of prophecy. Why are the readers back then supposed to understand the metaphores?

Quite right. The revelation was penned in the same century as that of the Olivette discourse of Matt chapter 24 and luke 21, in fact only about 60 years between. Revelation is prophesy projected ahead at least 1900 years, when Rome is just another capital city in the world today.

Incorrect. Revelation was written specifically to meet a need of the seven churches to which it was addressed, to wit, encouragement.

Revelation was not just written to the churches of Johns time it was written to all the Lords servants.

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants

[nebula]

Tell me - do you believe we are living in the fulfillment of Rev. 20-22?

I understand Revelation 20-22 is a contrast to Revelation 17-19, a "tale of two cities" as it were. It doesn't follow that there is necessarily a fulfillment to be had.

All I can say is that you have presented a very weird understanding of Revelation.

Dare I ask your understanding of the prophecies concerning Messiah?