Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree

[nebula]

Whether I go to heaven or not will depend on whether it's God's will; if I'm one of His elect or not. I can proclaim Jesus my savior; I can say the sinner's prayer (which isn't even in scripture) I can try and follow all the commandments but when you get down to the nitty gritty it's up to whether God says I'm in or whether He says I'm out regardless of what I say, or do, or think but all too often, like most people, I forget that and think that I have a free-will decision in the outcome. That's a hard habit to break.

Hypathia - this isn't what the Scriptures say.

[EricH]

Whether I go to heaven or not will depend on whether it's God's will; if I'm one of His elect or not. I can proclaim Jesus my savior; I can say the sinner's prayer (which isn't even in scripture) I can try and follow all the commandments but when you get down to the nitty gritty it's up to whether God says I'm in or whether He says I'm out regardless of what I say, or do, or think but all too often, like most people, I forget that and think that I have a free-will decision in the outcome. That's a hard habit to break.

Hypathia - this isn't what the Scriptures say.

I agree. This is really not what the doctrine of election teaches

[Hypathia]

Whether I go to heaven or not will depend on whether it's God's will; if I'm one of His elect or not. I can proclaim Jesus my savior; I can say the sinner's prayer (which isn't even in scripture) I can try and follow all the commandments but when you get down to the nitty gritty it's up to whether God says I'm in or whether He says I'm out regardless of what I say, or do, or think but all too often, like most people, I forget that and think that I have a free-will decision in the outcome. That's a hard habit to break.

Hypathia - this isn't what the Scriptures say.

The bible says a lot of things but when you get down to the heart of it it does say it's God's decision, God's predestination and there's nothing we can say or do to change it.....but it doesn't stop us from trying.

EmilyAnn - You're tripping all over yourself in that last post.

[nebula]

Well, I guess that explains why you are stuggling with your faith right now (what you have written in another thread) - you are forever fearful of your eternity.

[Emily~Anne]

EmilyAnn - You're tripping all over yourself in that last post.

I am tripping all over myself? I am simply trying to figure out what you are saying. Are you going to clarify or not?

I will quote it for you:

So what if you adopted a child, and the child's birthday was unknown? Would you simply never celebrate the child's birthday?

The chances of that happening are very unlikely; however, if it did happen I would celebrate the birthday on the day the child entered the adoption system or on the day I adopted it and it came to live with me. That's a little different than celebrating the birthday of the God of the Universe who evidently didn't intend for us to know the actual day of his birth. Maybe He didn't want us to celebrate it......I just don't know. All I know is that we don't know when it was, whether we're suppose to celebrate it, and the day that some people do celebrate it was already a celebration that had been taking place for hundreds of years. Maybe birthdays are a big deal to us but not to God?

So, are you basically saying that perhaps God made sure we did not know the exact date Jesus was born because it is sin for us to rejoice in the birth of Christ? If not, please clarify the point you are trying to make, cause I am just not getting it.

Also, if you do think it is sin for us to celebrate Jesus's birthday, then why isn't it sin to celebrate your children's birthdays?

And if you do not think it is sin, then what is the problem?

[Guest shiloh357]

I celebrate my kids birthdays on their actual birthdays; I don't celebrate them on someone's elses (real or imagined) birthday.

Whether I go to heaven or not will depend on whether it's God's will; if I'm one of His elect or not. I can proclaim Jesus my savior; I can say the sinner's prayer (which isn't even in scripture) I can try and follow all the commandments but when you get down to the nitty gritty it's up to whether God says I'm in or whether He says I'm out regardless of what I say, or do, or think but all too often, like most people, I forget that and think that I have a free-will decision in the outcome. That's a hard habit to break.

That is not true for the one who has been truly born again. I have a "know-so" salvation. Getting saved is not like filling out an application and then not knowing until you die if God accepted the application.

Jesus said:

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

(John 5:24)

Jesus says that since I believe His words and I believe God the Father who sent Him, I HAVE (present tense) eternal life. I am not waiting to find out down the road if I will make it or not. Salvation for the Christian is a present day possession. I have it today.

Furthermore, John wrote:

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

(1 John 5:11-13)

I have Jesus living in my heart today, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Both of these passages tell me that I have eternal life today, right now.

Salvation is not based on what you think or do. It is based on what Jesus did on the cross. The Bible never portrays salvation as something you have no assurance about concerning whether you are saved or not.

[sweetycakes]

I celebrate my kids birthdays on their actual birthdays; I don't celebrate them on someone's elses (real or imagined) birthday.

Whether I go to heaven or not will depend on whether it's God's will; if I'm one of His elect or not. I can proclaim Jesus my savior; I can say the sinner's prayer (which isn't even in scripture) I can try and follow all the commandments but when you get down to the nitty gritty it's up to whether God says I'm in or whether He says I'm out regardless of what I say, or do, or think but all too often, like most people, I forget that and think that I have a free-will decision in the outcome. That's a hard habit to break.

That is not true for the one who has been truly born again. I have a "know-so" salvation. Getting saved is not like filling out an application and then not knowing until you die if God accepted the application.

Jesus said:

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

(John 5:24)

Jesus says that since I believe His words and I believe God the Father who sent Him, I HAVE (present tense) eternal life. I am not waiting to find out down the road if I will make it or not. Salvation for the Christian is a present day possession. I have it today.

Furthermore, John wrote:

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

(1 John 5:11-13)

I have Jesus living in my heart today, in the person of the Holy Spirit. Both of these passages tell me that I have eternal life today, right now.

Salvation is not based on what you think or do. It is based on what Jesus did on the cross. The Bible never portrays salvation as something you have no assurance about concerning whether you are saved or not.

That is so right, Shiloh.

And something that people would do well to take into account.

[Guest 14theworld]

For a few years now, I have been under the belief that the biggest secular icon of Christmas, other than the guy in the red suit, was made mention of in Jeremiah 10:1-4 as a pagan instrument that should be forbidden in the homes of any believers. Having grown up a Gentile in the midst of the tradition of Christmas and all that comes attached with it, and learning later about the true birthdate of Christ much earlier in the year and the origins of the Christmas holiday itself, I have struggled greatly over the past few years with regards to Christmas.

In fact, this year I lack any "Christmas Spirit" whatsoever and am looking forward to the end of all of the comotion, lack of good financial stewardship, schedule crunches, and "Christmas cheer" that is so temporarily affixed on this particular time of year. Call me a scrooge if you want...bah humbug! lol

Read along with me in the KJV:

"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. "

That sure does sound like they are talking about the Christmas tree that many people have sitting in their living rooms this time of year.

I decided to re-study the whole issue of Christmas. You see, I see it as a pagan holiday and would like nothing more than to do away with it in my personal life. I'm not saying that it is wrong for others to observe it, in fact, if more people spent as much energy and time projecting the Christ that they attempt to project this time of year all year long, the Church would be a lot more inviting to people. What I am saying is that I personally have no desire to observe this so called holiday....the only reason I say so called is because the word holiday means "Holy Day" and the only one who designates what days are "Holy" is G-d. I therefore call any national "holiday" a so-called holiday...be it Christmas, Halloween or the 4th of July....so please don't take what I am saying as implying that you are wrong for observing Christmas....that is between you and G-d.

As a family, we are still observing Christmas within my household, and we still have a Christmas Tree. This is why I am so perplexed this time of year and continue seeking answers to know where G-d's Word truly stands on this matter. I already know what many Jews and Messianic Jews may have to say about this issue and I understand their reasoning. That is why I am so perplexed.

However, here is what the same verse is translated to in the NIV:

"Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them.

For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. "

This scripture is not talking about "decking" a tree with gold and silver. It is talking about decking a piece of chisled wood from the tree with gold and silver....a wooden idol in other words. This scripture is addressing idolatry and not the Christmas tree, which wasn't a custom until much much later in time by the German Hessiens and therefore could not have been addressed by scripture as a pagan custom.

I've even took a look at the original hebrew to determine for myself which translation is more accurate in our modern English and I have to side with the NIV translation on this one.

This is why I encourage people to use multiple translations in their research. Our language has simply transformed too much over time to rely on a single translation.

I have to agree with vrspock.There is no commandment,no ordinance and no law in the bible (KJV)saying that anyone has to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Jesus did command us to remember him via communion,but thats pretty much it or perhaps I'm ignorant.

I have debated & researched the origins of Christmas and I too feel it is a pagan holiday.

Will we stand in judgement for taking part in it ?

[Guest Biblicist]

Of course I celebrate my birth and the birth of family members. That has no bearing on whether or not early Christians considered the birth of Jesus of any particular importance.

So you celebrate your birth and the births of your family, but not Christ's?

What is Christ to you that he is so much less important?

God judges the "early Christians" for their actions, and he judges you for yours. It is more important that you worry about your own actions than theirs.

[artsylady]

Hey Hypathia.

Why don't you respond to the post rather than my signature. I will check out what you've said about Paine when i have more time.

Anyway, here's the post again.

I feel sorry for Christians that don't celebrate Christmas. I haven't bothered with the dates because I think it's irrelevant.

I think we have to ask ourselves, is God upset with us for celebrating the birth of Jesus? We answer to Him and Him alone. Is He upset because we have the date wrong?

I do think that Santa is a clear diversion from Christmas and that's one reason I don't like the idea of teaching it to our kids. Let's be honest, those who were raised to believe in Santa, self included. As a kid, were you more excited about Santa or Jesus? Myself, I'd have to say Santa. How sad is that? I just changed my mind on the whole santa thing last year actually for this reason, plus more that I won't mention right now.

And, if all Christians decided to do away with celebrating Christmas, what would become of this holiday? It would become even more commercial, more santa claus oriented, more secular etc than it already is. At least nonbelievers go to church this time of year! At least we can still hear in some stores the mention of Jesus in songs at this time of year! At least secular radio stations play songs that carry the name of Jesus! At least children who are raised in secular environments can still see nativity scenes this time of year and ask questions! Why would we as Christians, want to give it up and give it all away to santa or back to pagan origins? For dating technicalities? Very hard for me to comprehend.

I believe it's the Christians duty to, as they say "keep Christ" in Christmas. And I don't think God's upset with us that we may have the date wrong.