Works / Faith in the Believer

[Blien]

Sorry I just wanted to add one more thing. Usually I dont whip out verses like this, but I feel this topic is important.

James 1:19 -27

Listening and Doing

19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it

[Vickilynn]

I disagree... he WAS talking to believers. <snip>

Shalom Blien,

No, I cannot agree that Jesus was speaking to Believers. I believe the verses plainly state that He was addressing those who DID NOT KNOW HIM (as in not born-again) and were using His name. No place does it say these people were born-again Believers. In fact, they cannot be, since Jesus said He NEVER knew them. If they had been His, He would know them.

The point is, we cannot lose our salvation and we cannot have it taken from us as long as we abide in Him. That is a heart action, not a works action. From the heart that is abiding in Jesus, comes the desire to walk in His ways. Our actions come from our submitted hearts.

[Guest Biblicist]

The way I see it, if one can do something to lose their salvation...then one can do something to gain it as well.

That way of thinking is not Biblical.

Salvation is all GOD! It is HIS salvation, not ours. He saves us. He reaches down into the grave and gives us life. Just as he did with Lazarus.

[Vickilynn]

Sorry I just wanted to add one more thing. Usually I dont whip out verses like this, but I feel this topic is important.

James 1:19 -27

Listening and Doing

19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it

[MeCajunboy]

Shalom Suzanne,

Is this the root of your other thread questions concerning works?

Are you saying that if a Believer does not do good works, they lose their salvation?

If not, please say what you are REALLY saying so I can understand your position and get to the real issues. Thank you.

Anyone else care to comment on this issue?

Well Vicki, If you trust and know God's Word He says, "Anyone who believes in HIM will automatically want to do HIS will/works " when they become achieved believers. So YES! We know we are all saved for believing in God and HIS Word. But I would have to believe that according to HIS Word if I don't see "fruit" or "works" coming from a known believer, I would have to pull him/her over on the side and advise them that they are not showing the true Spirit of God. Wouldn't you think?

Blessings

Cajun

[exrockstar]

The way I see it, if one can do something to lose their salvation...then one can do something to gain it as well.

That way of thinking is not Biblical.

Salvation is all GOD! It is HIS salvation, not ours. He saves us. He reaches down into the grave and gives us life. Just as he did with Lazarus.

exactly, one will never hear of stories or examples in the bible that one gains salvaions. loses it, gains it again, loses it again, gains it back....

ive heard rediculous stories of how salvation is like a gift certificate that was never cashed in but given back.

passing that info around is like passing a bad joke. God the Father does not find it funny to be tossing around salvation

like a hot potatoe.

[Vickilynn]

The way I see it, if one can do something to lose their salvation...then one can do something to gain it as well.

That way of thinking is not Biblical.

Salvation is all GOD! It is HIS salvation, not ours. He saves us. He reaches down into the grave and gives us life. Just as he did with Lazarus.

Shalom Bib,

AMEN! This the saying that WE do something to gain our salvation, which the Bible expressly states the opposite:

First we are saved, by grace, through faith (not works!)

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

THEN, as Believers, we desire to walk in His ways and do good works:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

NO place, does it say that if we fall, or we do not do good works, that we lose our salvation.

This is a very concerning stand because it basically calls us all to live in fear, tnat if we DON'T do good works, we won't make it to Heaven. This is what the cults teach. That you have to work your way to Heaven. This is not what the Bible teaches. We have assurance, that if we are truly born-again (and only us and G-d knows, not someone else) and we ABIDE in Him, we are His and no one or nothing can TAKE our salvation from us. We need not fear!

Take comfort brothers and sisters in these words:

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father

[Kansasdad]

Actually that was my thought as well, This has been hashed over so many times, it just gets difficult to start over again. I think if you look for threads about losing ones salvation you will find much.

God Bless,

K.D.

Sometimes people just like to go over things.....It can often help to clarify one's thoughts by rehashing the info.

Fair enough,

The problem with the yes or no question is that it really shapes the debate inaccurately. It seems to be attempting to set up a strawman that then can be easly refuted. The way the question is worded implies a certain assumption. I went back to an earlier thread and found this post by Cardcaptor on a once saved always saved thread, I think it provides a good look at the issue. The answer is long and I guarentee it will not be resolved. This debate has raged for a very long time.

Cardcaptor:

I believe that people can lose their salvation when they choose to no longer walk with Christ. This doesn't mean that they were never saved. In actuality nobody has been saved yet. We are not until we walk through the pearly gates of Heaven. The way it stands we are under the promise of Heaven if we continue in Christ.

1 John 2:24-25 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

See, there is the use of the word "IF". IF we keep what was given to us from the beginning we will continue in Christ and receive eternal life. The opposite of this is that if we do not keep that which we have been given then we will not receive the promise.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

If Christ has done everything for us and all we need to do is have faith then why do we find a statement like this one?

We all fell short of the glory of God once and he sent his Son to be our redemption, but we can lose that redemption again when we choose not to continue in the faith and walk with Christ no more.

This does not mean that a person is lost - saved - lost - saved - lost, etc. When we are born again we are given a promise of eternal life, but that life is not received until the Day Of Redemption. In the mean time, we can lose that promise if we no longer walk Christ or choose not to repent of my sins.

Hebrews 4:9-11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The labour that we do are the works that we were ordained to walk in which is obeying the commandments of Christ. There is a work that we do as Christians and is fulfilled by living the gospel and repenting of our sins. Every time I repent of a sin I did a work in working out my salvation in fear and trembling. This is what it means to take up our cross and follow Christ and because of this labour we will enter into that rest which is eternal life.

We come short of this when we live our lives with unrepented sin or choose to walk with Christ no more.

On Sunday when I was waiting for the Lord's Supper to be passed to me I was reading the bible and came across this passage -

1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now, chastening from God serves a purpose -

Hebrews 12:5-8 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

So we see here that God chastens us when we fall into sins. It helps us not to fall back into them. It's like spanking your children for doing something bad. It reminds them that if they do it again they could get spanked. This is all done for the good of our children so that they don't lead a life of corruption. The same is done with us so that we will repent of our sins.

Now, the point here is in the chastening of the Lord. We are chastened of Christ when we have sins that we are not repenting of. The purpose is for us to see the gravity of repentance and that sin, but look at the last of that verse -

"that we should not be condemned with the world"

We are chastened to repent of our sins so that we should not be condemned with the world. This means that if I choose not to repent of my sins that I can be condemned with the world. This would stand to mean that a Christian can lose their salvation and go to hell just like the world will be.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Those that DO the will of God are the ones who will make it into heaven. But what is the will of God?

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This also means this -

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

When we fall short of this even a Christians we can stand to lose the promise that has been given to us.

Matthew 7:21 is saying is that it takes more than just belief and faith to make it to heaven. Read this -

James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

All these works are is our obedience to the will of God. When we become Christians and spend our lives repenting of our sins we are doing the will of God as spoken of in Matt. 7:21.

James 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

We can say all day long we believe in God but do we do his will? Both combined make faith perfect.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

These works are not works of my own, they are doing the commandments of God. When I learn that lying is a sin and repent of it I did a work (Colossians 3:9). Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;. When I learn to love my wife more and give her due benevolence I did a work (1Co 7:3).

As Christians we start doing this -

Ephesians 4:21-32 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

These are the "Works" that we do in working out our salvation (Php 2:12) and the works that make our faith perfect and the works a man is justified by.

God Bless,

K.D.

[Guest Biblicist]

Here is something I have been wondering....Since I got married 20+ years ago.

What if someone exibits all of the fruits of the Spirit, but deny's Christ? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, long suffering [boy the long suffering!] etc. And they do good works all the time, helping out unwed mothers, driving their daughter in law around, cooking meals for their friends and family in need.

My mother in law is a Jehoviah's Witness, she does not believe in the Saviour. Yet she exhibits more fruits of the spirit than some of the born again believers I have known over my life. Including myself.

The thing is, if her fruits of the spirit do not make her saved, how does one's lack of fruits, at any given time in their life, make them NOT saved?

It has to be all about God, or my mother in law would be on her way to Heaven, even though she rejects Jesus Christ as her Lord and Saviour.

[Ovedya]

The indwelling Christ is Himself the factor of our salvation. We have been saved by Him, we possess Him as our life and are being saved by Him, and it is by Him that we will be saved. So regardless of the multiplicity of one's works, apart from Christ they are worthless. If it were otherwise than Christ would have died for nothing.