Calvin vs. Arminius

[Maestroh]

In all sincerity, I hate this topic. There are good brothers on both sides of the issue.

[JCISGD]

In all sincerity, I hate this topic. There are good brothers on both sides of the issue.

hi Maestroh, i commend you for wanting peace and seeing the good in others. There may be good brothers on either side but wrong doctrine will cause wrong actions, and so as christians we should endeavour to hold to the truth in all things.

Disputing supposed errors is not unloving, infact love demands it in the right spirit.

What do you make of Calvins life? He had men burnt at the stake for daring to dispute him or hold other beliefs.

[childeye]

In all sincerity, I hate this topic. There are good brothers on both sides of the issue.

hi Maestroh, i commend you for wanting peace and seeing the good in others. There may be good brothers on either side but wrong doctrine will cause wrong actions, and so as christians we should endeavour to hold to the truth in all things.

Disputing supposed errors is not unloving, infact love demands it in the right spirit.

What do you make of Calvins life? He had men burnt at the stake for daring to dispute him or hold other beliefs.

I think this issue is divided in semantics, terms of all words are changed according to which perspective you approach it from. Freewill is a subjective view that seeks not to blame God for sin. It is possible from the objective view that sin exists because of God being taken for granted, and blame or finding fault itself is what is impure. This would mean sin, which began in Satan, is a matter of circumstance predicated on an ignorance which God foreknew would exist and and prepared a way beforehand to eliminate it. Men were beguiled into trying to fix what was not broken.

What is percieved as error, is often times miscommunication. After all, the Holy Spirit is one Truth. It only matters if one wants to live, and that depends on one's image of God. I see the Christ as the true image of God which makes me want to live, for His Christ shows a love that will never break my heart but is eternal. Now wanting to live, I see no choice possible but repentance, and hence my repentance is inspired by the goodness of God. If God is separating and dividing, it is no wonder that the vessels prepared for destruction will choose a different path than those who were fashioned unto a more glorius purpose. We who are the vessels of glory, if i am one, cannot however take any credit so that God alone is glorified. He chose the lowly things over the high for this purpose, so no man will glory. This is my perspective of the gospel.

[ester1]

Why, since God has allowed us to 'choose' ( ie: Joshua 24:15), would He not allow us to choose for Him or against Him? I am not saying that the Holy Spirit didn't have any role in turning our hearts, but I cannot believe that God would allow His son to die for the whole world and then only choose/elect a few to join him in Paradise.

[childeye]

Why, since God has allowed us to 'choose' ( ie: Joshua 24:15), would He not allow us to choose for Him or against Him? I am not saying that the Holy Spirit didn't have any role in turning our hearts, but I cannot believe that God would allow His son to die for the whole world and then only choose/elect a few to join him in Paradise.

Good point.

No need for Jesus to die if God had already chosen the elect. In fact, there would be no need for the creation of our universe if God had already chosen the elect.

These are statements made about those things that are outside of time by us who are in time. This makes all such assertions precarious.

[apologia828]

No need for Jesus to die if God had already chosen the elect. In fact, there would be no need for the creation of our universe if God had already chosen the elect.

The elect still need to be saved from their sins. Therefore the blood of Christ is still a necessary part of the equation. Besides what does the Bible say is the whole purpose of the creation? To glorify God. All things were created by Him and for Him (1Col1:16) Plus, 1 Corinthians 10:31 teaches us that in everything we are to glorify the Lord. That is our purpose and the cross was the greatest manifestation of His glory. I believe in election and the cross as the glorious means of saving those whom He had elected before the foundation of the earth (Eph. 1:4)

I disagree.

God's knowledge is not constrained by time.

God knows who is going to choose him, but we don't. He doesn't force us to choose or reject his grace.

That's right because the sinner default position is that they are already rejecting his grace until the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration. Since we were enemies of God as Paul tells us in Romans and could not please God, we also can not come to Him until he draws us.

Jn 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. HCSB

Please take not of the original Greek words.

Can come = pros dunatai

dunatai means to be able to therefore its not only that they don't want to but they are incapable of coming to God unless what. Unless the father draws them.

The Greek word elkuse which means to drag (literally or figuratively) and metaphorically to draw by inward power.

The very same word is used in Acts 16:19 when Paul and Silas are "dragged" into the market before the magistrates.

This is a perfect Biblical example of the i in Tulip, irresistible grace. God must regenerate the heart of the sinner from hating and running away from Him to loving and worshipping Him for the great God that He is.

All Greek citations are from the Interlinear Greek New Testament Bible (Kindle)

[apologia828]

Why, since God has allowed us to 'choose' ( ie: Joshua 24:15), would He not allow us to choose for Him or against Him? I am not saying that the Holy Spirit didn't have any role in turning our hearts, but I cannot believe that God would allow His son to die for the whole world and then only choose/elect a few to join him in Paradise.

Here's where we get into the L of TULIP, limited atonement. This system is consistent if you understand it, which even anti-calvinist George Bryson admits. The question is did Jesus really die for every single person in the history of the world or for a select group. This boils down to doing consistent interpretation. What do we do when we see this paradox?

1Jo 2:2

2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. HCSB

VS.

Eph 5:25-26

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the word. HCSB

Who does Ephesians say Christ loved and gave Himself up for? Everyone in the world? No, the church but John says the whole world. There's no contradiction between the two verses when we correctly interpret them. One of the rules of interpretation when looking at the meaning of a specific word is to look at the meaning of that word in other contexts. In 1 John we hear the term the "whole world". We need to remember the fact that the way in which we use a word may not be the same way John used it in writing this epistle. For example the same Greek word for Kosmos (world) is used in 1jn 2:15 only bit further down.

15 Do not love the world or the things that belong to the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. HCSB

Are we going to then say they hold the same meaning? Definetly not in this case. Therefore, we have to examine the context and compare them with other Scripture on this topic. Look at the use of Kosmos in the following:

Jn 6:33 For the bread of God is the One who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” HCSB

Does Christ give eternal life to those who will be in hell as well? This world can't refer to every person but a group.

2Co 5:19-21 says, That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.” 21 He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. HCSB

Is everyone in the world reconciled unto God so that their trespasses will not be held against them. If so then none can be condemned for their sin resulting in the heresy of universalism, that everyone will be saved.

Also notice the personal pronoun "us" in verse 21. He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us. Not for the world, not for all but for us, the believers.

In conclusion, when all of Scripture is taken together as a whole 1 John 2:2 is a reference to Christ being a propitiation for beliervers in the whole world, different nations, tribes, and tongues. God does not distinguish between persons and has indeed saved quite the international church in our day and age.

[ne14pool]

of course not all men are saved. that doesn't make God's plan a failure at all. it means he gave us the ability to excercise free will. it is not God's desire that any should perish, but He gives us, ALL of us, every opportunity to 'choose this day who you will serve'. that does not make Him less than soveriegn. to the contrary, it is a shining example of His soveriegnty, since He is the one who GAVE us free will. He doesn't lie.

it is not holding God accountable to human standards at all. God is the very definition of love. to say that He would only pick and choose a few, while denying others the opportunity and thus giving them no opportunity to escape the condemnation of eternal torment and separation from Him is contrary to His own word.

again, whoever believes in Him, not whoever God allows to believe in Him. you're right, we could go around in circles on what God didn't say. i choose not to put words in His mouth. i prefer to think God means exactly what He says. no hidden agenda.

If God gave us the ability to exercise freewill then we would never have choose him. The verse you quoted in Joshua about choose this day whom you will serve is actually a choice between 2 false gods and is often misquoted as supporting man's freedom to choose God. Context, Context, Context, it is important. God is the only one who truely has freewill. He can do as he chooses. God doesn't deny anyone from coming to him, but he must enable them to come to him, he must draw them to himself otherwise nobody would ever come to him. That is what the bible says.

God has no hidden agenda. He chooses his elect, that is why they are called "God's elect". Because God is the one who choose them! Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

[TheNewMan]

Attention: Calvinism is wrong. Here is why.

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

This defies just about every single rule of logic, not to mention the Word of God itself. Humans do, in fact, possess free will. Why would God command men to act righteously if it was beyond their ability?

Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why would God command this of them, if He was the one deciding who is saved and who is not?

Romans 10:9-10 - "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." It doesn't say, "if God causes you to confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and if He makes you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." No. The condition is presented to us, so that if WE fulfill the condition, HE will save us from our sins.

I challenge everyone and anyone to present a scripture in the Bible that says men cannot believe in the Lord of their own volition.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

What a bunch of bologna. A couple of verses for you to consider:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 - "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."

Are you trying to tell me that God doesn't do as He wishes to do? Those two verses clearly state that God wants everyone to be saved. And yet YOU say (in direct contradiction with the Bible) that God chooses only certain people to be saved. Interesting. I believe you are calling God a liar. John 3:16 states that God gave up His only begotten Son so that WHOEVER believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. God does in fact choose only certain people to be saved: those who believe on Him and OBEY. The choice is OURS, whether we will respond or not. Jesus died for ALL mankind. I challenge everyone to show me a verse in the Bible that says Jesus died for ONLY a portion of mankind. Good luck.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

Once again, incorrect. The Bible makes it quite clear that men who were once saved by God can cast away their salvation through disobedience.

Galatians 5:4 - "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." How can you fall from grace if you were never IN grace? It is impossible.

Hebrews 6:4-6 - "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." Notice the words "IF THEY FALL AWAY," which imply that it is in fact possible to fall away. Also the words "renew them again to repentance," which says that these people once repented, but were sinners once more and were in need of new repentance. If salvation is guaranteed, how would these people fall away, and need to repent once more?

Revelation 2:10 - "... be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." This is clearly a condition. If one is faithful, one will be given a crown of life. If salvation was guaranteed, why would a condition such as this be mentioned? It would not be necessary. In fact, according to Calvanism, faithfulness and obedience are not necessary for salvation, because Jesus provides all that is necessary to be saved. This verse, along with Hebrews 5:9, prove that view quite wrong.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

There is no mention of this in the Bible. Never does the Bible mention that we are given a call the we cannot resist. God is not DEPENDENT upon man's cooperation for success. He REQUIRES it of us. It is a condition that He DESIRES of us to meet in order to give us salvation, not because He NEEDS it to be so, but because He WANTS it to be so. Once again, read Hebrews 5:9, which says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Also read Mark 16:16 which says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Also, 1 Peter 3:9 which says that God wishes that ALL men would come to repentance, not willing that any should perish. Crystal clear verses. I don't understand how so many people misinterpret the Bible.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Correct. God DOES determine who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. He has decided that whoever obey Him will receive salvation, as is clearly stated in Hebrews 5:9.

The bottom line is, the doctrine of Calvanism directly contradicts dozens of Bible scriptures which teach that God requires it of man, who possesses free will, to obey Him in order to be saved. He has decided (being the Almighty, sovereign God that He is) that He will save all those who are obedient to Him.

Edited August 16, 2011 by TheNewMan

[TheNewMan]

Hi, TheNewMan,

I understand your frustration with what seems illogical to you, but actually the Bible teaches both what you present above and what "Calvinists" present. For example:

(1) Total Inability (Free Will):

Ro 5:6: "Just at the right time, when we were still powerless (yet without strength), Christ died for the ungodly."

Christ died for us so that we could be justified by His blood. (Romans 5:9) Romans 5:6 does not refer to free will. We were powerless to be forgiven of sins, because God had not yet made a way to be forgiven of sins.

Ro 8:7: "The sinful (carnal) mind is hostile to (enmity against) God. It does not submit (is not subject) to God's law, nor can it do so (neither indeed can be)."

This does not say that a sinful mind can not repent and cease being carnal. It simply says that, while we are living according to the flesh (Romans 8:5), we focus on things of the flesh and cannot please Him. If we live according to the Spirit (Romans 8:5), we can please Him. This passage also does not infer that man does not have free will, merely that one must live spiritually to please the Spirit.

Jn 15:5: "I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

How could we bear good fruit if we are still sinners? We cannot. Therefore, Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross and was resurrected that through His blood we could have forgiveness of sins (Hebrews 9:13-14). There is no other method to be pleasing to God except by being forgiven of our sins and being obedient to God. That still leaves us the condition to believe, repent, be baptized, and be faithful to Him (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Revelation 2:10). This passage does not infer that man does not have free will, simply that only through Christ are we able to bear fruit. It remains our choice (because we have free will) whether or not we will allow God to forgive us of our sins, and to begin bearing good fruit.

(2) Unconditional Election:

Ro 9:11-12, 16: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: (i.e.,) not by works but by him who calls. . .It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

That passage refers to Jacob and Esau, and how God had planned from before their birth that Jesus would come through Israel's seed. It is not discussion mankind as a whole.

Eph 1:4-5, 11: "For he chose us in Christ before the creation of the world. . .he predestined us to be adopted as his sons. . .In Christ we were also made heirs, having been predestined. . .

God chose to adopt as His sons those who would trust Him (Ephesians 1:13). Before the creation of the world, He decided that whoever would believe on Him and obey Him would have everlasting life, salvation (John 3:16; Hebrews 5:9). This verse, as all verses, must teach a harmonizing doctrine with the rest of the scripture, or else the scriptures contradict themselves, and therefore God contradicts Himself, and therefore God is not perfect. Since God has said that He wishes all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), and offers the invitation of salvation to all who believe (Romans 10:9-10), we must then logically conclude that "the elect of God" consist of those who decide to believe on Him and obey.

Ro 8:30: "And those he predestined, he also called, those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Refer to the red words above.

(3) Limited Atonement:

Jn 10:14-15: "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me. . .and I lay down my life for the sheep."

That does not state that Christ excludes certain people from joining His flock. It states that He knows those who join His flock.

Jn 17:9, 20: "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. . .My prayer is not for them alone (disciples). I pray also for those who will believe in me (not praying for all sinners) through their message."

He prayed for His disciples because they had heard His words and believed that God had sent the Lord, whereas the world had hated Him (vs. 8, 14). His prayer was that His disciples would be united. Why would he pray for the world to be united with His disciples? This proved limited atonement only so far as stating that only those who believe on the Lord and obey Him will be saved. He does not exclude men randomly. He excludes those who exclude themselves. He welcomes those who obey.

Before going to the cross, Jesus prayed only for those the Father had given him, not for the rest of mankind (world).

Is it conceivable that he would decline to pray for any whom he was going to the cross the next day to die for?

Like I said, the prayer was for unity, not for forgiveness of sins.

(4) Irresistable Grace:

Ro 8:30: "Those he called, he also justified." (But not all sinners are justified. So are all sinners called?)

Paul's sense of the word "call" and "called" is bring to faith, convert. It is not a general call, as in Mt 22:14. In Paul for example:

• God works all things for the good of those who are called (brought to faith)--Ro 8:38. (Paul is not referring to all mankind here, but to those who believe. Those who believe are the "called.")
  
• We preach Christ crucified. . .to those whom God has called (brought to faith), Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God--1Co 1:23-24. (Paul is not referring to all mankind here. Christ is the wisdom of God only to those who believe. Those who believe are the "called.")
  

It contrasts with the idea of a merely external and ineffectual (not causing to happen) general call (invitation), as in Mt 22:14, "Many are called, but few are chosen."

2Th 2:13-14: "From the beginning God chose you to be saved. (Those whom God chooses to be saved, will effectively be saved.)

You are right, those who are called are those who have believed. They believe and THEN are called. The calling doesn't produce belief. Also, belief in God alone does not save or justify, as even the demons believe (James 2:19), but obedience justifies (James 2:21-25; Hebrews 5:9). Galatians 5:4 says "Christ has become of no effect for you, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Apparently in some cases a bestowal of grace by the Father is not a guarantee of salvation, nor is that grace irremovable or irresistible, if men can fall from it. God's Grace is that we can be forgiven of sins by a sacrifice that we did not deserve. Grace is unmerited favor. The favor was Christ's sacrifice, which we did not deserve. However, we can choose (as those who Paul is talking about apparently did) not to accept God's grace, or even to renounce God's grace once it has been given.

(5) Perseverance of the Saints: (This is once saved, always saved.)

Php 1:6: ". . .he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ."

The good work (which was the fellowship in the gospel according to verse 5) was to be carried on to completion. Where does it mention salvation of individuals? The WORK would be completed, and would be carried on until the day of Christ, which has not yet come. This verse does not talk about salvation, but rather the further spread of the gospel.

Jn 10:28: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

No one can snatch US from His hand. No one can force us to sin. We ourselves choose whether or not we will be estranged from Christ, which we KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT to be a possibility, according to Galatians 5:4)

Jn 6:39: "This is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

Read verse 40. Whoever believes on Him shall be raised up at the last day. God's WILL is that no one should perish (2 Peter 3:9), but He does not force us to be obedient. We are able to fall from His grace (Galatians 5:4)

1Pe 1:5: "Through faith, we are kept by the power of God until the coming of the salvation (Jesus) that is ready to be revealed in the last time."

The key words in this verse are "through faith." Faith is a condition that WE must fulfill. Faith also implies obedience (James 2:14-26), and therefore disobedience will result in God NOT keeping us by the power of God. It is possible to abide in sin after one has been saved, and no sinners shall be in Heaven.

So the Bible also teaches what the "Calvinist" (Paul) presents, as well as what you present above.

By saying that, you are saying that the Bible contradicts itself, because Calvanism and the things which I have presented above are in direct contradiction to one another ("once saved always saved" vs "the possibility of apostacy", etc.). Therefore, the Bible can only teach one. And I have shown how Calvanism is not taught by the Bible.

In Christ,

Eleanor