Calvin vs. Arminius

[taylor30]

I honestly don't know how Calvinism has survived this long. It goes against all biblical teaching and common sense. IF calvinism were true, evangelism would be pointless, praying would be pointless, and God would not be loving. If our eternal destiny is sealed before we are even born, then why not live in as much sin as possible, since your destination is already sealed and there is nothing you can do about it. MOST IMPORTANTLY, it would be very cruel of God to tell the world to choose him when he knows full well that is impossible and he himself is actually the one doing the choosing for them.

Clearly people who believe in Calvinism have never actually read the Bible themselves.

[L.J.]

Pastortaylor,

If Calvinism is true....I have been predestined to be an Arminius.

God bless you sir,

L.J.

[taylor30]

Thank you Shep,

I am so tired of seeing "brothers and sisters" call each other names over this doctrine. Its ok to debate it but you can't tell that either side is saved by the same God. I have read the bible for myself before I new who Arminius or Calvin was and I guess I fall in the Arminius camp (more Wesleyan).

Case in point. Last night in chat I asked a question:

My wife and I visited a church last week where the pastor is a 5 point Calvinist but holds that it is an open hand fellowship issue (ie a closed hand issue would be denying the deity of Christ or the bible is false).

My question was that if that should cause a problem with my wife and I. I love his preaching and his point of view on most issues.

Ofcourse someone jumped up and started their "Arminius was a heretic" rhetoric. I said that I didn't want to debate the issue yet this person didn't seem to understand that. I wish people would quit taking what their preacher or someone else says as the truth and research it for themselves. And I wish people would also stop using the word heretic untill they research what the word means. I have read up on the life of Arminius and there is nothing that I have read on that man to suggest in any way that he was a heretic. He was much more tolerant of Calvinists than they are of him.

L.J.

Sectarianism is such a destructive force. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a man has to have a 100% correct view of every single teaching. There are many great men of God who sometimes are a little off on some subjects. That pastor could very well be a child of God, just a little off on that specific teaching. If it is not a salvation issue, I believe God allows for difference of opinion. Try showing the pastor what you think scripture says, and then pray that God opens his eyes. As long as his teaching isn't directly going to be responsible for leading people away from Christ and Salvation, its ok to disagree. If a minister is 90% correct in his teaching, thats a GOOD minister. I can count on 1 hand all the pastors I have heard in my entire life who I thought had it all pretty much perfect in their teachings.

[NTMicaiah]

The vote optons don't really give a spot that represents my views. The way I understand the 5 points I generally agree with them. The idea of limited atonement seems only half true from the Scriptures. While Christ died for the world, He moreso died for the chosen. He loved the Assembly and gave Himself for her.

[taylor30]

The vote optons don't really give a spot that represents my views. The way I understand the 5 points I generally agree with them. The idea of limited atonement seems only half true from the Scriptures. While Christ died for the world, He moreso died for the chosen. He loved the Assembly and gave Himself for her.

I hope you also realize that according to 5 point calvinism, man has NO free will. If I came up and shot someone, it was God's will, because my free will didn't exist. 5 points also means my repentance and obedience are pointless, because Heaven or Hell was chosen FOR ME before I was even born. I don't see scriptures that teach that, but if you do since you believe in Calvanism, please point out those scriptures to me.

[unworthy2]

The vote optons don't really give a spot that represents my views. The way I understand the 5 points I generally agree with them. The idea of limited atonement seems only half true from the Scriptures. While Christ died for the world, He moreso died for the chosen. He loved the Assembly and gave Himself for her.

I hope you also realize that according to 5 point calvinism, man has NO free will. If I came up and shot someone, it was God's will, because my free will didn't exist. 5 points also means my repentance and obedience are pointless, because Heaven or Hell was chosen FOR ME before I was even born. I don't see scriptures that teach that, but if you do since you believe in Calvanism, please point out those scriptures to me.

you don't understand calvinism.

[greatnews]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Calvinism</span>

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Arminianism</span>

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I am neither calvanist or the other, I don't believe in either but I am a christian

[unworthy2]

I spent some time discussing this point on another forum and this is a summary of my opinion on the matter.

First of all, I don't believe in "absolute predestination" but I do believe in "absolute predetermination." This means that when God created, God determined. There isn't any way around this. It is as illogical to say that God could create a being with absolute free will in regards to Him as it would be to say that He could create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it.

However, beyond that I believe in free will.

[taylor30]

The vote optons don't really give a spot that represents my views. The way I understand the 5 points I generally agree with them. The idea of limited atonement seems only half true from the Scriptures. While Christ died for the world, He moreso died for the chosen. He loved the Assembly and gave Himself for her.

I hope you also realize that according to 5 point calvinism, man has NO free will. If I came up and shot someone, it was God's will, because my free will didn't exist. 5 points also means my repentance and obedience are pointless, because Heaven or Hell was chosen FOR ME before I was even born. I don't see scriptures that teach that, but if you do since you believe in Calvanism, please point out those scriptures to me.

you don't understand calvinism.

Please back up your judgement instead of accusing people of ignorance. I actually understand Calvinism perfectly, since I used to believe it myself and know many people who still do. Calvinism teaches that man has NO free will, that even believing in Christ must be allowed by God before a person can make the choice. If free will doesn't exist, then what I stated is exactly correct. If it seems in error to you, that is probably because calvinist preachers cleverly hide what I just said with different ways of putting it. But an outside unbiased look reveals what I have stated to be correct. Don't worry, you would not be the first calvinist to hear this for the first time, and hopefully you will realize the false teachings and even dangerous teachings of calvinism.

[He giveth more grace]

I can't say that I know a lot about Arminius, I know TULIP more, but I have researched John Calvin to find him a religionist and not a Christian. I denounce most of his doctrine except "Total Depravity" and I am not sure about "Unconditional Election", I'm open.