Jump to content
Join us for Throwback Thursdays in Worthy Chat! Join us at 8 PM EST every Thursday.
Worthy Ministries invites YOU to our annual REAL ISRAEL TOUR, October 18-29, 2025!
IGNORED

Knowledge and Sovereignty

Guest mcm42

By Guest mcm42
in Theology

 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest LadyC

Guest LadyC

Posted
Posted

i'm afraid, mcm42, that you have effectively rendered it impossible to ever understand the answer to the question you ask, because you want it answered without allowing a discussion of the entire concept of predestination.

I don't believe in anyway that we have free-will to choose, that is my stance.

then how can you believe anything scripture has to say? the term free will is not in the bible, but the concept is very clearly given, repeatedly. same can be said for the trinity, and for the rapture, and for a number of other things.

Guest mcm42

Guest mcm42

Posted
Posted
the term free will is not in the bible, but the concept is very clearly given, repeatedly

I would not agree... Maybe I would concur on a limited will but certainly not a free will. I don't even believe that God himself has free will... as stated above he is not free to sin, for He can not sin. So too I do not believe we can do anything that goes beyond the sovereign allowance and predetermined will of God.

I do not believe that God must consult man's supposed free will prior to electing... this is not Biblical... In Fact I believe the Bible teaches just the opposite, again I will quote Romans 9 and numerous others that I've posted elsewhere. Remember this life is not about us getting salvation, it's about God getting the Glory. However He chooses to do that is right and Just, for indeed he is God and holds the Right to rule His creation how he sees fit.

The discussion is not about man's free-will, it is about God's Knowledge, and how that effects His free will. I of course realize how this brings the issue of Man's free will into question, but that is not the central issue here.

I am asking the simple question..."Does God's Knowledge of His own actions then limit Him to those actions?" that is the question

Guest LadyC

Guest LadyC

Posted
Posted
I would not agree... Maybe I would concur on a limited will but certainly not a free will. I don't even believe that God himself has free will... as stated above he is not free to sin, for He can not sin. So too I do not believe we can do anything that goes beyond the sovereign allowance and predetermined will of God.

God's will is soveriegn, not free. you're right, He is Holy, and incapable of sin.

WE, however, ARE capable of sin.

does God's foreknowledge limit Him? God is limited in the sense that He can not do anything evil to accomplish anything. God is limited in that He can not LIE to us, which means He has to give us the choice, because He said we HAVE the choice.

He is not limited, however, in how many opportunities he gives us, or in how many people to plant seeds He places in our path.

oh wait, if He places someone in our paths, then that person has no free will, right? wrong. He guides, He directs, and He knows who will respond to His will... so He is not limited in the number of people He can choose from to put in our path, because He knows who will and will not choose to go where He leads them.

Guest mcm42

Guest mcm42

Posted
Posted
God is limited in that He can not LIE to us, which means He has to give us the choice, because He said we HAVE the choice.

I do not believe, unless the Holy Spirit comes into him, that a man can make this choice for God. I believe He is so sinful, that given the choice he chooses no... all of mankind...so I believe that God must save us first, before we will ever come to him. I believe this may be the crux of our differences... that is that you believe an unsaved man can come to Christ. I believe a man must be saved first (that is given the gift of faith, or elect) then he accepts Christs.

I will not answer this issue any longer in this post, please stay to the topic of God being limited to His Knowledge, and how you feel about that.

E-mail me if you want, and I will show you how I handle every Scripture on this issue, but not here...

Adstar

Adstar

Posted
  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  12
  • Topic Count:  75
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,399
  • Content Per Day:  0.41
  • Reputation:   1,307
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  09/01/2002
  • Status:  Offline
Posted

Hello mcm 42 :)

I will do my best to give the thoughts that i have, but i know language can sometimes prove to be inadequate when trying to give thoughts on some issues.

I suppose, before I get too involved the basic Question is this...Does God Know "or foreknow" His own actions, or does his forknowledge only go as far as His creation?

This question can only have relevance if God himself is subject to time?

Now is time that we are bound to a creation of God? I believe it is.

Is God subject to His creation? I don't believe He is.

Here is what I mean. If God knew everything He was going to do, then would He not be subject to that knowledge. That is He would be bound to what He knew was going to happen. Therefore He wouldn't be sovereign! For sovereignty Suggests Control of situations, not just knowing what will happen.

See this is the point you are thinking that God is dependant on time and therefore pre plans history and makes things happen. But what if God creation is a finished product that we who are part of that creation cannot see because we are locked into time that is part of His creation? Have you ever noticed that a lot of prophesy especially Revelation, which is written in the past tense like it has already happened. Like John was viewing events as they happened Not as they would happen. As if when John was in the spirit on the island of patmos he was transported out of time to see the events that had happened but where yet to happen within time.

In this I began to think, What could God be capable of Doing outside His own knowledge of what He is going to do? (I know I do think too much) Therefore God would only be the sum result of His knowledge.

Well God has all knowledge so the limit of His knowledge is not really an issue is it?

The concept of Limit only comes into effect when there is something more to be known.

The same holds true for us, in a sense. If God knew I was going to type this, how could I get away from typing it? Do I have the choice to stop, if God knows beforehand that I will not! Do I have any choice at all in the Foreknowledge of God?

Just because God knows what we will all do does not mean that we have no free will. God added free will into His plan and factored it in.

Even better if I stopped now, which I didn't, God Forknew this act. You could stop reading but if God knows you will not stop reading, do you have any choice in the Matter?

Yes of course. i see you didn't stop did you? But you had the freedom to stop didn't you? Just as i had the freedom to answer your post or not. I know that God knew before the foundations of the world that i would read your post and i would reply using the words that i used. But it was still my free will to do so.

Even more-so Salvation. If he knows you will choose Him... was this before or after the choosing that he came to this knowledge? If there was ever a time he didn't know, then there was a time that he was not All-knowing. What's EVEN MORE... If He knew you would choose him beforehand, is that really choice?

Yes it is choice.

For you have no way of escaping that which God knows will happen? This is not so much a problem for me, but for those who believe in God's forknowing our decisions... I believe we are chosen beforehand anyway...

Thats right we have no way of escaping what God already knows has happened that

 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • Exhortation - October 24, 2024

      Albert Finch posted a blog entry in Albert Finch Ministry,

      You are coming up higher in this season – above the assignments of character assassination and verbal arrows sent to manage you, contain you, and derail your purpose. Where you have had your dreams and sleep robbed, as well as your peace and clarity robbed – leaving you feeling foggy, confused, and heavy – God is, right now, bringing freedom back -- now you will clearly see the smoke and mirrors that were set to distract you and you will disengage.

      Right now God is declaring a "no access zone" around you, and your enemies will no longer have any entry point into your life. Oil is being poured over you to restore the years that the locust ate and give you back your passion. This is where you will feel a fresh roar begin to erupt from your inner being, and a call to leave the trenches behind and begin your odyssey in your Christ calling moving you to bear fruit that remains as you minister to and disciple others into their Christ identity.

      This is where you leave the trenches and scale the mountain to fight from a different place, from victory, from peace, and from rest. Now watch as God leads you up higher above all the noise, above all the chaos, and shows you where you have been seated all along with Him in heavenly places where you are UNTOUCHABLE. This is where you leave the soul fight, and the mind battle, and learn to fight differently.

      You will know how to live like an eagle and lead others to the same place of safety and protection that God led you to, which broke you out of the silent prison you were in. Put your war boots on and get ready to fight back! Refuse to lay down -- get out of bed and rebuke what is coming at you. Remember where you are seated and live from that place.

      Acts 1:8 - “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses … to the end of the earth.”

       

      ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY
        • Thanks
        • This is Worthy
        • Thumbs Up
      • 3 replies
      Michael37

      Picked By

      Michael37,

    • The Simchat Torah War -- Is this a Water Breaking Moment of Revival?

      George posted a topic in Biblical Topic Videos,

      George Whitten, the visionary behind Worthy Ministries and Worthy News, explores the timing of the Simchat Torah War in Israel. Is this a water-breaking moment? Does the timing of the conflict on October 7 with Hamas signify something more significant on the horizon?

       



      This was a message delivered at Eitz Chaim Congregation in Dallas Texas on February 3, 2024.

      To sign up for our Worthy Brief -- https://worthybrief.com

      Be sure to keep up to date with world events from a Christian perspective by visiting Worthy News -- https://www.worthynews.com

      Visit our live blogging channel on Telegram -- https://t.me/worthywatch
      • 0 replies
      George

      Picked By

      George,

    • Understanding the Enemy!

      George posted a topic in Study Group,

      Understanding the Enemy!

      I thought I write about the flip side of a topic, and how to recognize the attempts of the enemy to destroy lives and how you can walk in His victory!

      For the Apostle Paul taught us not to be ignorant of enemy's tactics and strategies.

      2 Corinthians 2:112  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 

      So often, we can learn lessons by learning and playing "devil's" advocate.  When we read this passage,

      Mar 3:26  And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 
      Mar 3:27  No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strongman; and then he will spoil his house. 

      Here we learn a lesson that in order to plunder one's house you must first BIND up the strongman.  While we realize in this particular passage this is referring to God binding up the strongman (Satan) and this is how Satan's house is plundered.  But if you carefully analyze the enemy -- you realize that he uses the same tactics on us!  Your house cannot be plundered -- unless you are first bound.   And then Satan can plunder your house!

      ... read more
        • Oy Vey!
        • Praise God!
        • Thanks
        • Well Said!
        • Brilliant!
        • Loved it!
        • This is Worthy
        • Thumbs Up
      • 230 replies
      George

      Picked By

      George,

    • Daniel: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 3

      George posted a topic in Study Group,

      Daniel: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 3

      Shalom everyone,

      As we continue this study, I'll be focusing on Daniel and his picture of the resurrection and its connection with Yeshua (Jesus). 

      ... read more
        • Praise God!
        • Brilliant!
        • Loved it!
        • This is Worthy
        • Thumbs Up
      • 13 replies
      George

      Picked By

      George,

    • Abraham and Issac: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 2

      George posted a topic in Study Group,

      Abraham and Issac: Pictures of the Resurrection, Part 2
      Shalom everyone,

      As we continue this series the next obvious sign of the resurrection in the Old Testament is the sign of Isaac and Abraham.

      Gen 22:1  After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
      Gen 22:2  He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

      So God "tests" Abraham and as a perfect picture of the coming sacrifice of God's only begotten Son (Yeshua - Jesus) God instructs Issac to go and sacrifice his son, Issac.  Where does he say to offer him?  On Moriah -- the exact location of the Temple Mount.

      ...read more
        • Well Said!
        • This is Worthy
        • Thumbs Up
      • 20 replies
      George

      Picked By

      George,
    View All
×
×
  • Create New...