Is Jesus God?

[HAZARD]

Just been reading the scriptures for my self lately and im not sure what i believe reguarding this....there are scriptures going both ways....

Jesus is refered as the son of god, as the messiah...he even prays to the father..and says the father sent him..peter also calls him the son of god

But...... at the same time jesus says he and the father are one..if you have seen him u have seen the father...but does he mean they are one person or they are one as in on the same accord.....for instance the bible says that when 2 get married they become one flesh.....

My question is how can he be the son of god and god at the same time and why would he pray to himself?

BTW im leaning more towards the fact that jesus is god...thats what ive been taught but help me understand..thanx

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Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39).

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

What was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally.

The Scriptures quoted above prove that Jesus is one of the three separate and distinct Spirit Beings making the Deity or Godhead. In the beginning, up until about two thousand years ago the second person [The Word] had the same kind of Spirit body, personal soul, and spirit that the Father and the Holy Spirit still have. At that time one of the three divine persons of the Trinity took human form to redeem man (John 1:14).

The Person of the Godhead we now know as Jesus Christ, before becoming man (John 1:1), had no beginning and existed eternally with the Father; " . . . and the Word was with God . . . " John speaks of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father from all eternity (John 1:1-5).

Jesus Himself tells us that HE EXISTED BEFORE Abraham and BEFORE the World was created (John 8:58, "JESUS HIMSELF said unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." Also, "And now, O Father, glorify thou ME with thine own self with the glory WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS" John 17:5). God the Father does not condone self glorification, or self adulation. The Father wasn't asking Himself for Glory? God the Father was asked by Jesus to RESTORE the Glory Jesus had in the beginning when He was with God, as the WORD. The glory He divested Himself of when He became flesh and blood-a man (John 1:14). The Glory what has been restored to Him as asked by the Father; Note Jesus's words "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18).

And Jesus now sits at GODS THE FATHER'S RIGHT HAND in His Glorified FLESH AND BONE BODY in Heaven (Luke 22:69; Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3). The Father HAS A SPIRIT BODY! "God IS A SPIRIT and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).This scripture does not say God is spirit, it plainly says God IS A SPIRIT!

Paul speaks of Jesus as existing before all things, and before He became man, as the Word He created and upheld all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, and verse in verse 8, God the Father Himself calls His own Son God, "But unto the Son HE SAITH, Thy throne O God is forever and ever: a septre of righteousness is the septer of thy Kingdom.

God the Father created all things BY HIM; And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HAD BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by JESUS CHRIST" (Eph 3:9), and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2).

These plain Scriptures cannot be ignored. Water freezing when cooled, recondensing back to water when warmed and boiling when hot still returns to and remains water. This has noting to do with God. To compare God with a substance of His own creation is insulting Him even if it is done in ignorance.

When the "Word" who was with "God" became FLESH AND BONES and dwelt among us (John 1:14), He ramained FLESH AND BONE (Luke 24:39), and He will remain so for ALL ETERNITY (Zech: 13:6). He is FLESH AND BONE, The Father is Spirit, they now sit beside each other on thrones in Heaven, not inside each other. They are "ONE" for sure, "in unity" not omnibody..

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There is the human spirit, and there is the Holy Spirit. God the Father is a Spirit being, " God IS A SPIRIT and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24).

Jesus Christ now has a glorified flesh and bone body, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

Zechariah teaches that Jesus will have His scares for all eternity, "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends" (Zech. 13:6).

They sit BESIDE EACH OTHER ON A THRONE IN HEAVEN.. How can "one" being sit beside himself? Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven the whole time Jesus was on Earth, they now are sitting side by side, in Heaven, and the Holy Ghost (the third person) being sent from the "TWO" in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

[Guest shiloh357]

They sit BESIDE EACH OTHER ON A THRONE IN HEAVEN.. How can "one" being sit beside himself? Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven the whole time Jesus was on Earth, they now are sitting side by side, in Heaven, and the Holy Ghost (the third person) being sent from the "TWO" in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

This is not entirely accurate. God is not corpreal. He does not have a "body." God is everywhere becasue is omnipresent. As a result of being everywhere at once, He does not have "side" to sit next to.

The idea that God "sits" on a throne is an anthropromorphism. It is basically giving human attributes to a nonhuman entity. God does not have arms or eyes as we understand them but the Bible mentions God's right arm and his eyes roaming to and fro. These are all anthropromorphisms.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit did not stay in heave the whoe time Jesus on Earth. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in the form of a dove at His baptism. Jesus moved in the power of the Holy Spirit when He ministered on earth. That was why it was the worst and most unforgivable blasphemy to claim that Jesus was operating under the power of beelzubub when He cast demons out of people. Jesus called it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

[Guest shiloh357]

There is a false conclusion that is drawn by those who reject the Deity of Jesus.

They claim to have no problem with Jesus as the "Son of God," or even "Lord" but they simply do not accept Him as God.

This kind of reasoning demonstrates a fundamental flaw in their understanding of Scripture and of the culture which flavors how the Scriptures were written.

"Son of God" is not meant to be understood as something other than "God." The term "Son of God" is always used to denote Deity.

One mistake is the tendency to see the Jesus as something akin to biological sons of earthly fathers. Jesus' relationship to the Father is not the same and cannot be compared to an earthly father's relationship with his son. In fact, as far as anyone can see in Scripture there really is no frame of reference in the human experience to compare it to. Their relationship is unique beyond humanity's ability to fully grasp it intellectually.

The Hebrew culture in which the Bible was written and through which God inspired the Scriptures, was not circumvented and God used that culture to express biblical/spiritual concepts. In Hebrew thoutght, "Son of..." denotes equality with something else. Jesus referred to the sons of Zebedee as "sons of thunder" because of their violent temper. He was comparing their ferocious tempers with the sound of thunder.

The Hebrew concept of "Lord" is also very misunderstood. Jesus is referred to as "Lord." When you see the word "Lord" used in reference to Jesus, it is the Hebrew word "Adonai." The word "master" is a different word.

When the angels announced Jesus' birth to the shepherds, they declared "...for unto you is born today a Savior which is "Maschiach Adonai" (Christ THE Lord). When ever "Adonai" is used it is ONLY referring to God. "Adonai" is NEVER used in reference to ANYONE but God. You cannot refer to Jesus as "Lord" but reject Him as God, because the Bible uses a term for "Lord" that always and irrefutably refers to Jesus as God.

When the Bible refers to Jesus as "The Son of God" or as "Lord" That is just another way that the Bible is calling Jesus, God.

[Smalcald]

It is an important issue. Sure it does seem like we are picking details here, but in actuality it is very important.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Deity of Jesus is not something about which people can agree to disagree about. The Deity of Jesus is a foundational and defining element of the Christian faith. It is not a peripheral, nonessential issue like the timing of the Rapture, speaking in tounges, length of a man's hair or other issue about which we can debate.

The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from all other world religions. Without Jesus as God, He as no more authority than the Bhudda or Mohammed. He teachings carry no more weight than any other human teacher if Jesus is not God. Jesus would be nothing but just one more member in the pantheon of religious figures that have dotted the landscape of human history for millenia.

Salvation is the story of God stepping out of eternity into linear time and interacting with man face to face. Everything about the mechanics of salvation demands that it be the sole work of God without human assistance of any kind. Therefore, Jesus was not man who was chosen to by the Father to be the sacrifice. Jesus is God who predetermined before the foundations of earth were laid that He would save mankind from sin by giving of his own life to make it happen.

How do we know it was God hanging on the cross? Simple because Jesus was in complete control of how and when He would die. Jesus died at the exact moment the lamb was killed in the Temple at Passover. This is important because Jesus' death was not a murder, He was not a martyr, it was not an execution. His death was a sacrifice that He gave and the Bible says that Jesus gave up His spirit. Jesus did not succumb to the cross. The cross did not conquer Jesus. Jesus, according to Philippians chapter two, became obedient to death and in doing so, He conquered death. Jesus died at the exact moment He purposed to die. If Jesus had willed it, He could have hung on the cross for 1000 years, and no one could have done anything about it. Jesus from start to finish was in complete control of everything.

Jesus, is unique to all other religious teachers in that He claimed and exercised personal power over death. Only God can make such a claim AND exercise it as well.

[getat151]

shiloh you said that the son of god is another term used to mean god....but arent angels called the sons of god back in the old testiment..i believe in genises

im not trying to argue with you im jus trying to get to the bottom of this....btw we pretty much agree with eachother..what you said about jesus and the fathers relationship not having anyform of reference to us humans..is exactly what i said earlier

[Guest shiloh357]

This is totally incorrect!!!!

The bible specifically states this scripture, but it is up to you to believe it or not -

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

WOW!!!!!!! Will you look at that? God actually called the a GOD!!!

No, it does not call Jesus "A" God. It calls Jesus "God." Apparently you are not understanding the difference. Jesus is God. Jesus is not "A" God.

To claim Jesus is "A" God requires us to view The Father as "A" God, The Son as "A" God and the Holy Spirit as "A" God. That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that there is One God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "God."

If Jesus was God here on the earth then how did Stephen see Jesus standing on the right hand of God in heaven? Was he lying?

God the Father doesn't have a right hand because the Bible the Bible teaches that God is everywhere. God the Father is omnipresent and this is only possible because God is not corpreal, he does not have a "body" as we understand it. When the Bible refers to the "right Hand" of the Father, it is an anthropromorphism. The Father does not have hands, feet, eyes, arms, etc. Because of that He does not "sit" on a throne. Jesus at God's "right hand" refers to Jesus' authority. That would have been understood in the anthropromorphic sense by his hearers and it would have made them all the angrier because Stephen was essentially calling Jesus "God."

If they are both the same person then why did Jesus refer to both he and God in this scripture as "we" and "our"? He is speaking in a plural sense. Not singular.

There again, is the heart of the problem. I did not say that they are the same person. That is something you have projected on to me. I said that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are One God. I did not say they the same person.

This even represents the three are separate. Jesus was on the earth, God was in heaven, and the HS descended as a dove.

Yes, separate person, but not separate Gods.

Who was God talking to to make God in their image? We are not made in the image of Angels. If God created everything through Jesus then he had to be talking to Jesus and the HS who were there in heaven with him. Or was he talking to his other personalities?

That only distinquishes them as persons not as God's or "personalities."

There are three listed here doing three different things. If they were all the same person then why did God use them in various scriptures doing different things and even using two or more in the same scripture?

If God and Jesus were the same person then why make this distinction? It makes no sense if they are the same.

How can Jesus be subject to God in heaven if they are the same person?

All of your questions proceed from one single flawed line of reasoning: "speparate persons" does not mean "separate Gods." There is ONE God in three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus alwasy declared that He was in subjection to His Father while on earth. That does not detract or speak against Jesus' Deity.

[Fraught]

cardcaptor, a lot of things have already been said. but i cannot not reply. a part of your quote follows:

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

WOW!!!!!!! Will you look at that? God actually called the a GOD!!!

Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

you appear to be perceiving God in human terms. as to the 'right hand of God', God's right hand is a place of authority. likewise, in isaiah, God's strong right arm conveys his exercise of authority. Jesus is God's right arm & right hand. sitting at God's right hand is the same as saying exercising the authority of God. is God not spirit? is God not powerful to manifest his spirit in any way he likes. (see my post in God manifesting himself as a cloud, as a pillar of fire, and as a human being).

i pray that you would spend a few minutes reflecting on Jesus Christ as God Almighty. i am only asking you just to really think on it for a little while. that God would actually manifest in human form, live as we do with the weaknesses of humanity, having to get tired, to get hungry and thirsty, to experience sorrow and fear, to be without protection in a dangerous world.

to the christian, that's powerful. God loves us that much!! to share the human condition and to share the way out.

[Fraught]

I found an interesting explanation given by a Rabbi who came to believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah:

**********

I was faced with the doctrine of the Trinity. We Jews have a popular monotheistic slogan: Shema Y

[nebula]

I spent 13 years in a cult being taught Jesus was not God by the twisting of scripture. When I finally found my way out I so wanted the "truth" .....and knowing the Word says that 'Christ is truth'.. I begged for Him to help me. Help ... "for me" ..came in the form of one main scripture :"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways , says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" Is 55:8 (Showing me that I will never be able to completely understand God and His ways!)... and from an illustration given by a Lutheran pastor when I asked him to explain trinity ...he asked if I knew what a equilateral triangle is... one that all three sides are equal but each side is not the other two...but all three make up the triangle (or Godhead). That made so much more sense to me than all the theological proof...so that now, all the scriptures about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I am able to accept that all are God.

God ministers to me so much through music and one He uses time and time again contains the words "I don't need to understand I just need to hold His hand"..... Maybe it's because I am a simple person that only needs basic simplicity.

God bless you in you search for answers!

Treasured

Treasured - you got it sooo right!

Our Western society is so intellectually arrogant, we think that everything can be explained through logic and reason (it's not just scientists who have this problem - we are all guilty!).

But like quantum theory, if you think you understand God, you really don't.