Age of the Earth 2

[artsylady]

Most people only know about 5000 to 6000 words (well, that's the average vocabulary). Also, Koko's IQ has been measured as around 85 - which is just below the average human.

http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/howmany.htm

A teenager typically has a vocabulary of 10-12,000 words. A learned man 75,000. Big difference. This ape was probably at a 4 year old level in vocabulary but is 26 years old.

1. Two ducks and two dogs have a total of fourteen legs.

True

[artsylady]

http://www.gorilla.org/world/pics_g1.html

I don't know. Looking for signs of great intelligence and I see Koko reading a storybook and holding a favorite baby doll. But wait, she does sit in front of the computer. Oh never mind, she's just making the sign for 'apple'. lol.

I think I'll go and have a banana - brain food!

[Bread_of_Life]

A teenager typically has a vocabulary of 10-12,000 words. A learned man 75,000. Big difference. This ape was probably at a 4 year old level in vocabulary but is 26 years old.

Fair enough, I obviously got my figures from a different source, we'll take your figures as read from now on in this discussion.

Above is a sample from an online iq test. Now do you, Scientific Athiest, really believe that they are asking this gorilla these kinds of questions and he is scoring relatively high?

No, but there are different IQ tests for different ages - I would have imagined that the Gorilla scored high in an IQ test for a 4 or 5 year old, whose vocabulary he can match!

So they say. Why hasn't it happened then if it doesn't take much?

Well, it has happened, in human beings, through a series of intermediate forms. However, the only reason we started evolving in the first place was a change in our environment - in this case, natural deforestation drove our ape like ancestors out onto the plains.

Clearly the ancestors of gorillas did not face such a challenge, and could live happily in their little banana eating, jungle dwelling niche with a maximum IQ of a four year old.

Yes, it is massive. Would you care to befriend a gorilla? Make it your companion? Why not?

Actually, in the case of chimps, many people do befriend them as pets - apparantly it's very much like having an overactive young child living with you. But yes, 5 million years of evolution in both lineages has made meaningful friendship difficult, I'll grant you that!

Well, have they ever made any inventions?

yes, if you're asking "do apes use tools". They do. Okay, so they're not very sophisticated, but they can abstract sufficiently to be able to understand causal interactions between objects that they havn't used together before.

So how long do they think apes have been around? How long do they think humans have been around?

It depends on what you mean by humans and apes. Homosapiens have been around a few hundred thousand years, maybe, if you discount a few small physical differences. Gorillas and chimps and such like we don't know much about - because their fossils are so scarce, because things don't tend to fossilise well in forests.

If a flood covered the earth, what kind of evidence would you expect to find?

Well, I'd expect to find giant flood plains - animal and plant remains in no particular order - a lot of non-equilibrium rivers - very very few species of freshwater fish - very very few species of land animal - evidence of recent worldwide sedimentation. In fact, lots of things that we just don't see.

Why, what would you expect to see - what predictions does flood geology make that we can test?

Well, let's look at one of these examples then.

Sure, I actually posted one earlier on these boards, of ancient cave jewelery - here it is:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/040412/040412-9.html

So it's likely that the sons and grandsons of Noah as named in the Bible were real people?

That's a rather different question. It could simply be that Moses (and other tribal peoples who created these legends) decided on the names based on tribes that they knew.

But even given this, it could well be that Noah was a real guy - but we have no evidence of this, especially given that he was meant to have lived for hundreds of years, and given the ridiculous nature of the flood legend that surrounds him.

[artsylady]

No, but there are different IQ tests for different ages - I would have imagined that the Gorilla scored high in an IQ test for a 4 or 5 year old, whose vocabulary he can match!

So Koko scored less below average for a 4 year old, yet he's 26 years old, and you're trying to make a point at how they can be compared to humans in intelligence?

[artsylady]

QUOTE 

So they say. Why hasn't it happened then if it doesn't take much?

Well, it has happened, in human beings, through a series of intermediate forms. However, the only reason we started evolving in the first place was a change in our environment - in this case, natural deforestation drove our ape like ancestors out onto the plains.

No, no, no. Why haven't gorillas evolved? Your point was that gorillas are almost as intelligent as humans (which I don't buy) but why haven't they evolved in intellignce?

Clearly the ancestors of gorillas did not face such a challenge, and could live happily in their little banana eating, jungle dwelling niche with a maximum IQ of a four year old.

Clearly, modern gorillas who are facing extinction, happily eat bananas, play with dolls and read picture books. I think extinction might be considered a challenge? Do they even know they are going extinct? I doubt it! lol.

yes, if you're asking "do apes use tools". They do. Okay, so they're not very sophisticated, but they can abstract sufficiently to be able to understand causal interactions between objects that they havn't used together before.

No, I asked if apes or gorillas have ever invented anything. Have they? And since you want to talk about their tools, go for it. Let's hear it.

QUOTE 

So how long do they think apes have been around? How long do they think humans have been around?

It depends on what you mean by humans and apes. Homosapiens have been around a few hundred thousand years, maybe, if you discount a few small physical differences. Gorillas and chimps and such like we don't know much about - because their fossils are so scarce, because things don't tend to fossilise well in forests.

Okay, so you think we have the same ancestor. Why have humans evolved to such intelligence when apes and gorillas have not? Even three and four year old humans ask 'why is the sky blue' or 'where did we come from' and other questions that humans need to know. I'll bet Koko doesn't care as long as he gets his bananas or other treats or as long as you tickle him, he'll sign away whatever sign you want him to.

QUOTE

If a flood covered the earth, what kind of evidence would you expect to find?

Well, I'd expect to find giant flood plains - animal and plant remains in no particular order

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Fossil graveyards?

a lot of non-equilibrium rivers

we have a lot of rivers. lots of lakes.

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very very few species of freshwater fish

why? can't some fish adapt? or evolve? we know all canine came from one dog, why can't all fish?

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very very few species of land animal

why? remember the dog? remember how big the ark was? remember we've had 4000 years to repopulate?

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evidence of recent worldwide sedimentation. In fact, lots of things that we just don't see.

layers of sediment? fossils of dead animals? mountains forming, canyon formation? major changes to the earth's surface?

[artsylady]

SA: from your link posted.

A team led by Christopher Henshilwood of the University of Bergen, Norway found over 40 pea-sized shells with bored holes and worn areas showing that they had been strung on a necklace, bracelet or clothes.

Wow, so even 75 thousand years ago, we made more progress in intelligence than modern apes. Why do you think this is?

Much like a wedding ring or priest's collar, such ornaments are thought to have indicated people's social status, and suggest that the cave dwellers had a relatively modern culture.

That's no surprise. And making jewellery has NOTHING to do with survival.

The beads add to other archaeological finds in the cave that point to the sophistication of the occupants. These include bone tools and 77,000-year-old pieces of decorated ochre, which some think are the earliest examples of abstract artwork.

So much further advanced than apes or gorillas, don't you think?

Anatomically modern humans are thought to have lived in Africa from at least 160,000 years ago. But there is much debate about when they acquired language and other aspects of modern culture.

Much debate about that too huh?

Traces of red ochre on the beads may have come from paint or clothes.

Even paint and clothes back then? Paint, clothes, jewellery. Sounds like modern humans.

Most were found in a layer of sand that has been accurately dated to around 75,000 years old.

Now they're dating layers of sand????

Do you want to tell me how they can accurately date sand?

[artsylady]

QUOTE 

So it's likely that the sons and grandsons of Noah as named in the Bible were real people?

That's a rather different question. It could simply be that Moses (and other tribal peoples who created these legends) decided on the names based on tribes that they knew.

Yes it is likely. It's very likely these people lived and dispersed across the earth.

But even given this, it could well be that Noah was a real guy - but we have no evidence of this,

e

Well you just said that his sons and grandsons were likely real people. Of course it's possible that these sons and grandsons had an ancestor named Noah.

[artsylady]

But even given this, it could well be that Noah was a real guy - but we have no evidence of this, especially given that he was meant to have lived for hundreds of years, and given the ridiculous nature of the flood legend that surrounds him.

We have a geneology before and after him, a story passed down through generations about him and we have modern day places that have the same ancient names of his descendants. That's a lot more than we have about many historical figures, including William Wallace, who lived much more recently, but I'm sure you don't doubt his existance.

[artsylady]

bump

[Bread_of_Life]

So Koko scored less below average for a 4 year old, yet he's 26 years old, and you're trying to make a point at how they can be compared to humans in intelligence?

Yes, I am - it's remarkable how intelligent gorillas can be, given that we're about 7 million years seperated from them.

The point I was making is that there's not as big a gap as people make out. Other animals do use tools, have social relationships, do use language etc - not in as complex or intricate a way as we do, but nonetheless.

No, no, no. Why haven't gorillas evolved? Your point was that gorillas are almost as intelligent as humans (which I don't buy) but why haven't they evolved in intellignce?

The simple answer is, because there was not the selection pressure to do so. That is, the need for them to become more intelligent given their way of life did not sufficiently counteract the evolutionary cost in terms of additional materials and resources, especially in childhood rearing, to make them more intelligent.

Essentially, evolution is adaption driven. When creatures encounter a new environment, there is a drive, a selection pressure, to adapt to this new environment. This is what the ancestors of humans faced when they adapted to the plains, having been mostly forest dwelling. Actually, even then, it took a while for intelligence to become an asset - it didn't evolve straight away just because they were out on the plains - it took group activities such as hunting to make it an advantage.

The ancestors of Gorillas never had to hunt. In fact, they havn't faced significant changes in selection pressure for quite some time - they havn't had to adapt to a new environment for a long time. That means that they've evolved into a niche - they're good at what they do, so good that there is no pressure towards better adapted Gorillas (or at least, there hasn't been for any significant ammount of time).

Clearly, modern gorillas who are facing extinction, happily eat bananas, play with dolls and read picture books. I think extinction might be considered a challenge? Do they even know they are going extinct? I doubt it! lol.

yes, this is a challenge, mostly brought about by man's deforestation and culling. It's unlikely that Gorillas will be able to meet this challenge evolutionarily, because evolution is a slow process, and man's changes are very fast. That's why the extinction rate is so high at the moment, man's handiwork at destroying the planet is far too fast for evolution to provide the adaptions required to survive it.

No, I asked if apes or gorillas have ever invented anything. Have they? And since you want to talk about their tools, go for it. Let's hear it.

Well, they crack nuts with rocks, and also use materials to build dens in trees.

Fossil graveyards?

Even here the fossils are usually found in a particular order, or within a particular age of rock. Take the grand canyon for example, it is permeated with fossils in almost every layer, but they are in order, and the rocks are in chronological order. This cannot be explained using a flooding scenario - floods do not differentiate between fossils, and they do not know the age of rocks.

we have a lot of rivers. lots of lakes.

And how many of those rivers are not in equilibrium? For example, the grand canyon, a creationist favourite. They claim that the canyon was formed by the flood, yet, every tributary to the Colorado River is in equilbrium with the river (they meet the river at the same height). If the canyon were formed catastrophically, it would typically take hundreds of thousands of years for the river to return to equilibrium.

why? can't some fish adapt? or evolve? we know all canine came from one dog, why can't all fish?

About 97% of freshwater fish cannot survive in any form of salt water. That means that, only 2-3% of freshwater fish could even theoretically survive a flood.

The flood took place 4000 years ago, according to Christian mythology. That means that, within the last 4000 years, almost all freshwater fish species have evolved from only a few species. This rate of evolution is, as any evolutionist will tell you, completely impossible.

why? remember the dog? remember how big the ark was? remember we've had 4000 years to repopulate?

Most creationists estimate that about 10 to 15 thousand species max could fit on the ark. That's about one for every genus of animal.

Current estimates say that about 10 - 20 million species exist on earth today. Lets take a conservative estimate of 10 million.

That means that, in 4000 years, 15 thousand animals evolved into 10 million species. That's about 667 species per animal on board the ark, which is about 1 species every 6 years per animal. Many animals don't even have a generation time of 6 years.

And we're not talking about breeds of dogs using artifical selection - we're talking about species of animals evolving in nature. This level of speciation is quite simply impossible. In fact, it's fairy tale stuff. Lala land. Even if every mutation were taken on every generation, we couldn't account of the ammount of genetic variation we see within species, far less between species.

layers of sediment? fossils of dead animals? mountains forming, canyon formation? major changes to the earth's surface?

Which of these have been dated to 4000 years ago? The grand canyon for example has layers dating from 1700 million years ago to near present - which of these layers was created by the great flood? They all contain fossils...

Also, how is mountain formation a prediction of the great flood?

Wow, so even 75 thousand years ago, we made more progress in intelligence than modern apes. Why do you think this is?

I think that, 75000 years is a small chunk in the 5 million years that seperates us from other apes. Therefore, I would expect much evolutionary change to have been made by that time.

That's no surprise. And making jewellery has NOTHING to do with survival.

Agreed, it's simply a sign of culture, which is what you wanted right?

So much further advanced than apes or gorillas, don't you think?

Yes, in terms of intelligence, we are further advanced that gorillas, I've never doubted this.

Much debate about that too huh?

Yes, the scientific community thrives of debate - it is how theories change, and we come closer to the truth.

Now they're dating layers of sand????

Do you want to tell me how they can accurately date sand?

I don't know how they dated these artifacts, because I havn't read the paper on them. Perhaps you'd like to write to them and find out?

Well you just said that his sons and grandsons were likely real people.

No, I didn't say this, sorry if I gave you this impression.

We have a geneology before and after him,

Which in of itself is part of a myth - since the genealogy goes back to Adam and Eve.

a story passed down through generations about him

Well, then the greek myths must be true too - wonder how they got that horse into Troy, and how beautiful Helen really was?

and we have modern day places that have the same ancient names of his descendants.

Yes, it's amazing how tribes and tribal legends spread isn't it?