Obama's speach today

[Oh Hamburgers!]

For those who are not keeping pace. Here is is my previous post.

I, for one, don't understand the focus on Wright when the entire congregation seemed to agree and subscribe to the same racial animous. Obama would have us believe he has simply been caught in the crossfire but 17+ years of listening to this kind of negative sentiment would inevitably take it's toll on anyone regardless of their race. The people at this church stomp around blaming white people for every disparity that exists in the world base on what they see happening in their little corner of it. The accuse White America of not doing enough in Africa despite the U.S. being the largest provider of Aid. They really need to wake up and take some responsibility.

So you're not judging the church based on 6 minutes of video footage?

[The Lorax]

Most of us are simply admitting the possibility that these outbursts are not as isolated or random as some would have us believe.

But they are--it's documented. You can go through Wright's sermons and it is clear that his controversial remarks are few and far between. The problem is, you haven't gone through them, and the only words you hear from Wright are the controversial ones...because they are played non-stop by the media.

That being a possibility, what would this say about Obama and are we willing to risk having him as president? I know I'm not.

Are you one of those people who believes he is a Muslim in disguise?

[O'Dannyboy]

You guys give up in other threads and think the same arguments are going to win in others?

QUOTE (Oh Hamburgers! @ Mar 17 2008, 09:06 AM) The thing that frustrates me is how this gets carried out and embellished.

Earlier this morning I was switching through different news channels, and Fox's morning show spent about 3x the time on the "pastor drama" than the other 2 stations I was watching (imagine that )

The thing that bugged me is how the anchor was commenting on how Obama said that he would have left the church had he even been present when something like this happened, when that's not what Obama said at all. Obama said if he heard this type of sermon as a repeated message of the church he would have left, but now everyone is putting words into his mouth.

Really, sound clip news bugs me. This all needs to be taken into perspective, as well as the fact that Wright had been speaking to the congregation for about 30 years. I've only heard about 3 or 4 different sound clips taken from the pastor. Considering a 30 year time frame, that ain't too shabby.

All in all, I think we need to look past the face value on this one and dig a bit deeper before coming to conclusions based on a 10 second video clip.

Disregarding the few rants you may have seen, how do you expalin the churches vission statement? How do you explain Obamas African American Religious Committee?

African American Religious Committee (for Obama)

Trinity United Church of Christ talking points.

QUOTE "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community."

Understand that the website has been tended to since Rush and Sean brought the Reverends "tiraids" into the open. This church is without question "Afrocentric" and puts the well being and advancement of African Americans first and foremost. These are not random outbursts that Barack can dismiss as something he was absent for or can "catagorically denounce".

QUOTE

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
   
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
   
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
   
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
   
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
   
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
   
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
   
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
   
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
   
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY
    

Commitment to Africa, Cultural education, historical education of African people in diaspora and restoration? Notice how Biblical Education is number 5 on the list of priortities.

They are comitted to Africa rather than the U.S. Okay. They wish to promote African culture? Christian culture? Historical education? Of Christ or of Africa? Restoration of what? Reparations? Restoration of Africa? Economic Parity? And this has what to do with the Gospel?

It's not just the rantings of the pastor that are questionable here folks. The church itself seems so blinded by their heritage and agenda that they barely have room for the Word of God. This is the church that Obama feels obligated to stick with despite the loss of Reverand White, who conveniently decided to retire after his rantings made it to the media.

QUOTE THE BLACK VALUE SYSTEM

Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in

which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the

number one position in the Chicago School System. His dedication to the pursuit of

excellence despite these systemic denials has inspired the congregation of Trinity United

Church of Christ. We have prayerfully called the wisdom of all past generations of

suffering Blacks for guidance in fashioning an instrument of Black self-determination,

the Black Value System.

And we shall, beginning in 1982, institute an annual Black Value System-Educational

Scholarship in the name of Dr. Byrd.

This year, 1981, however, we recognize Dr. Byrd as the first recipient of the Dr. Manford

Byrd Award which will be given annually to the man or woman who best exemplifies the

Black Value System.

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and

schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

"The God of our weary years" will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism

and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all

humankind.

Commitment to the Black Community

The highest level of achievement for any Black person must be a contribution of

substance to the strength and continuity of the Black of the Black Community.

Commitment to the Black Family

The Black family circle must generate strength, stability, and love despite the uncertainty

of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to

withstand warping by our racist competitive society.

Those Blacks who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out

and expand that blessing to the less fortunate, especially to the children.

Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

We must forswear anti-intellectualism. Continued survival demands that each Black

Person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of

the formal education process. "Real education" fosters understanding of ourselves as

well as every aspect of our environment. Also it develops within us the ability to fashion

concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to

our problems. Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Black

Education must include elements that provide high school graduates with marketable

skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college.

Basic education for all Blacks should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General

Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of

Black minds.

To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase,

geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Black Community. We must

recognize the relativity of one's best: this year's best can be bettered next year. Such is

the language of growth and development. We must seek to excel in every endeavor.

Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

"It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago" Whether this is true

or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for

deserting the Chicago area. We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate

transportation and reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry. We are

in competition with other cities, states, and nations for jobs. High productivity must be a

goal of the Black workforce.

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of

self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources

instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a

respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model

for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive

ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors

must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who

show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor's control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off

one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that

induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn

more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them

to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us".

So, while it is permissible to chase "middle-incomeness" with all our might, we must

avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of Black

"middleclassness": If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary"

contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will

be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own

talented persons.

Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills

Available to the Black community

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and

Supporting Black Institutions.

Pledge Allegiance to all Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace The Black Value

System.

Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System - to Measure the

Worth and Validity of All Activity in Terms of Positive Contributions to the General

Welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards

Freedom.

Would you describe this as embelishment? This "church" and its congregation (Obama and Oprah included) are fixated on the color Black. Wouldn't you say?

[The Lorax]

[*]A congregation committed to ADORATION.

[*]A congregation preaching SALVATION.

[*]A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

[*]A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

[*]A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

[*]A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

[*]A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

[*]A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

[*]A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

[*]A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY

Commitment to Africa, Cultural education, historical education of African people in diaspora and restoration? Notice how Biblical Education is number 5 on the list of priortities.

They are comitted to Africa rather than the U.S. Okay. They wish to promote African culture? Christian culture? Historical education? Of Christ or of Africa? Restoration of what? Reparations? Restoration of Africa? Economic Parity? And this has what to do with the Gospel?

It's not just the rantings of the pastor that are questionable here folks. The church itself seems so blinded by their heritage and agenda that they barely have room for the Word of God. This is the church that Obama feels obligated to stick with despite the loss of Reverand White, who conveniently decided to retire after his rantings made it to the media.

QUOTE THE BLACK VALUE SYSTEM

Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in

which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the

number one position in the Chicago School System. His dedication to the pursuit of

excellence despite these systemic denials has inspired the congregation of Trinity United

Church of Christ. We have prayerfully called the wisdom of all past generations of

suffering Blacks for guidance in fashioning an instrument of Black self-determination,

the Black Value System.

And we shall, beginning in 1982, institute an annual Black Value System-Educational

Scholarship in the name of Dr. Byrd.

This year, 1981, however, we recognize Dr. Byrd as the first recipient of the Dr. Manford

Byrd Award which will be given annually to the man or woman who best exemplifies the

Black Value System.

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and

schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God

"The God of our weary years" will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism

and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all

humankind.

Commitment to the Black Community

The highest level of achievement for any Black person must be a contribution of

substance to the strength and continuity of the Black of the Black Community.

Commitment to the Black Family

The Black family circle must generate strength, stability, and love despite the uncertainty

of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to

withstand warping by our racist competitive society.

Those Blacks who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out

and expand that blessing to the less fortunate, especially to the children.

Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

We must forswear anti-intellectualism. Continued survival demands that each Black

Person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of

the formal education process. "Real education" fosters understanding of ourselves as

well as every aspect of our environment. Also it develops within us the ability to fashion

concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to

our problems. Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Black

Education must include elements that provide high school graduates with marketable

skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college.

Basic education for all Blacks should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General

Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of

Black minds.

To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase,

geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Black Community. We must

recognize the relativity of one's best: this year's best can be bettered next year. Such is

the language of growth and development. We must seek to excel in every endeavor.

Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

"It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago" Whether this is true

or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for

deserting the Chicago area. We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate

transportation and reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry. We are

in competition with other cities, states, and nations for jobs. High productivity must be a

goal of the Black workforce.

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of

self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources

instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a

respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model

for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive

ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors

must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who

show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor's control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off

one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that

induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn

more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them

to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us".

So, while it is permissible to chase "middle-incomeness" with all our might, we must

avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of Black

"middleclassness": If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary"

contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will

be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own

talented persons.

Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills

Available to the Black community

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and

Supporting Black Institutions.

Pledge Allegiance to all Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace The Black Value

System.

Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System - to Measure the

Worth and Validity of All Activity in Terms of Positive Contributions to the General

Welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards

Freedom.

Would you describe this as embelishment? This "church" and its congregation (Obama and Oprah included) are fixated on the color Black. Wouldn't you say?

If you think it is an unhealthy, racist "fixation" for black people to reflect on and value their black heritage, then it is you who are racist, Dannyboy.

I cannot fathom why you think it is inappropriate for black people to attend a congregation that focuses on their heritage.

[O'Dannyboy]

Most of us are simply admitting the possibility that these outbursts are not as isolated or random as some would have us believe.

But they are--it's documented. You can go through Wright's sermons and it is clear that his controversial remarks are few and far between. The problem is, you haven't gone through them, and the only words you hear from Wright are the controversial ones...because they are played non-stop by the media.

That being a possibility, what would this say about Obama and are we willing to risk having him as president? I know I'm not.

Are you one of those people who believes he is a Muslim in disguise?

Luckily I don't mind having to repeat myself. All I have to do is cut and paste.

I, for one, don't understand the focus on Wright when the entire congregation seemed to agree and subscribe to the same racial animous. Obama would have us believe he has simply been caught in the crossfire but 17+ years of listening to this kind of negative sentiment would inevitably take it's toll on anyone regardless of their race. The people at this church stomp around blaming white people for every disparity that exists in the world base on what they see happening in their little corner of it. The accuse White America of not doing enough in Africa despite the U.S. being the largest provider of Aid. They really need to wake up and take some responsibility.

[O'Dannyboy]

If you think it is an unhealthy, racist "fixation" for black people to reflect on and value their black heritage, then it is you who are racist, Dannyboy.

I cannot fathom why you think it is inappropriate for black people to attend a congregation that has a focus on their heritage.

BLACK is not a heritage its a color. Their fixation is on their color and ours and thats whats not healthy here. I don't like being blamed for the mistakes of others regardless what color they were. Are you accusing me of oppressing black people? They certainly are!

[Rick-Parker]

BP: Maybe they are waiting to see who gets the nomination. You can rest assured that during the election campaign, all the dirt will come out on both sides.

OH: If that's true, then it certainly discredits the notion that the media is "going soft" on Obama, doesn't it?

It is true about the media going soft on B. Hussein Obama because they want him to get the nomination. But I believe that, then, the conservative (impartial) press will treat both sides the same way and reveal all the dirt, ask the tuff question and disect every word.

OH: can we honestly judge the character of a man and his entire life's work from a lapse in judgment on the pulpit that occurred perhaps 3 or 4 times a decade? Again, no one is perfect, not even priests, pastors, reverends.

BP: You mean from a repeated lapse of judgment, right? Words like his come from the heart, not from the brain. If you look at the speeches, Wright is reading from a written speech. That's call premeditated racism.

OH: That doesn't change my question. It is clearly a lapse in judgement, premeditated or not. Out of his 36 years as a pastor, do his rare sermons truly reflect the work he has done for the community?

The Church did the work, not the pastor. His speeches clearly reflect his personal feelings, not God's. And all the parishners who stayed and rejoiced in his words as just a guilty.

BP: Again, for the 3rd time, has anyone heard this "preacher" talk about forgiveness, love, salvation and repentence? The cornerstones of the Christian faith?

OH: Towards the end of one of the controversial sermons, he begins to talk about love, but obviously that isn't added into the media's video clips.

But in general, no, I haven't heard him talk about forgiveness, love, salvation, and repentance. Do you want to know why? Because if I do a search on youtube, I just find the same 2 or 3 sermons repeated over, and over, and over again. Hmm, I wonder why there aren't any other sermons out there that show his message? Oh yeah, it's because these are the most radical sermons. He's been preaching for 36 years, you would think there would be somewhere that I could find "positive" tapes of his sermons. Or at least, if he was always so radical, and his message was always so hateful, you would think there were be much more to choose from, hmm?

The few sermons that are addressed are unacceptable, but we can't assume that Wright's message was always one of hatred, when we only have one (very limited) side of the story. In the same manner, discrediting Obama for "lacking judgment" is not something we can do when we've heard all of maybe 6 minutes of Wright, and Obama's been attending the church for about 20 years. It's in fact quite hypocritical of us to judge a pastor based on 6 minutes, and then claim that Obama lacked judgment.

I'm not talking about B. Hussein Obama's judgement here. I'm talking about "Reverend" Wright. If there are so few speeches, why aren't we seeing all the other speeches glorifing God comming out from the church as rebuttal to the "3 or 4" public snipets? All his "sermons" are available on dvd I believe. Where are those Christ centered sermons?

But this thread is about Obama's speech, not the character on "Reverend" Wright. There is another thread for that so I'm done talking about anything but the speech, here.

[exrockstar]

If you think it is an unhealthy, racist "fixation" for black people to reflect on and value their black heritage, then it is you who are racist, Dannyboy.

I cannot fathom why you think it is inappropriate for black people to attend a congregation that has a focus on their heritage.

BLACK is not a heritage its a color. Their fixation is on their color and ours and thats whats not healthy here. I don't like being blamed for the mistakes of others regardless what color they were. Are you accusing me of oppressing black people? They certainly are!

i think Lorax is new to christianity.

[The Lorax]

BLACK is not a heritage its a color.

Don't play dumb. If you are black, your ancestors are from Africa. BLACK, then, undeniably entails a heritage. (African)

Their fixation is on their color and ours and thats whats not healthy here.

This is your opinion as a white person. (Am I correct in assuming that you are white?)

White is and always has been the majority in this country and, as such, it is often viewed as the "default" or "normal" race. Being the majority, it is easy for white people to forget that race exists at all. But if you aren't white--if you are black or asian or latino, you automatically and naturally have a heightened awareness of race, being in the minority. And if you have a common ancestral plight, like blacks do, then race is especially hard to overlook. It is absolutely not racist to reflect on your race, be it black or white.

The only reason you think their "fixation" is unhealthy is because you are not black, O'Dannyboy, and you don't know what it's like to be in a racial minority with that kind of historical legacy. You think you are being high-minded by overlooking race, but actually you are just doing what comes most easily to you as a white person. Try to step outside your little box and see things from another perspective: theirs.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Dannyboy, I never "gave up" in earlier threads, in fact I responded to that same article you just reposted. But this isn't a competition, and it's not a boxing ring. I'm not here to "win" an argument, I'm here to post what I believe, and to comment on things I don't agree with.

But for the record I again looked at those links you gave... and so what? I don't get what's wrong with the fact african-american churches generally support Obama, and I don't get what's wrong with the Trinity page you linked. It explicitly says that they are not promoting the superiority of their race.

To Brandon:

It is true about the media going soft on B. Hussein Obama because they want him to get the nomination. But I believe that, then, the conservative (impartial) press will treat both sides the same way and reveal all the dirt, ask the tuff question and disect every word.

Then why is this type of information being brought out at such a key point in the electoral process? If it's a close race and "the media" wants Obama to win, why did the media come out with this story now? It doesn't fit with what you are assuming the press' motives are.

And for the record, calling it the " impartial conservative press" (you can just say Fox to save time ) is quite the oxymoron. How can the press be both impartial and conservative at the same time?

I'm not talking about B. Hussein Obama's judgement here. I'm talking about "Reverend" Wright. If there are so few speeches, why aren't we seeing all the other speeches glorifing God comming out from the church as rebuttal to the "3 or 4" public snipets? All his "sermons" are available on dvd I believe. Where are those Christ centered sermons?

So a "guilty until proven innocent" approach? So far the evidence that the entire church organization and Wright's outlook are more focused on black oppression than the word of God is based off of a handful of sermons in Wright's 36 year career.